Should Justin Welby resign?

OldFrill

Cabbie21

Today was already designated as Safeguarding Sunday in the CofE. Very apposite. We heard a very relevant sermon, followed by a statement from our Safeguarding officer, outlining the importance and how policies are carried out locally. A hymn specially written was sung. It is being taken very seriously on a local level, and nationally too.

With respect -
If it's the abuse of scores boys and the resulting decades of cover-up by the church is being taken seriously more clergy MUST resign, and congregations should be calling for that.
Designating a day and singing a hymn really doesn't cut the mustard.

Hear hear OldFrill.

Cognitive dissonance, I mean.

I would love to know the lyrics of the safeguarding hymn.

Personally don't feel that a hymn and a designated sunday make up for what has happened. I feel really sorry for the ordinary nice people who are extremely uncomfortable because they have cognitie dissonance. They still want to go to church, but they also know they are being let down by the church not spitting out the people who are hiding within.

Caleo

The Church. . . is pervaded at all levels by the culture of deference. There should be no established church at all . There is no good enough reason to teach young people to defer to any adult simply because he or she wears a silly hat or a dog collar.
Absolutely!
That should be less of a problem nowadays because there seems to be an increasing culture of no deference (respect) for anybody, whether to do with the church or not.

Like I said, I'm not C of E, but it does seem rather punitive on all ordinary congregation members who've turned up to take part in a religious ceremony to be expected somehow to carry blame or be lectured.
It seems to me what Cabbie21 describes as both appropriate and the start of a way forward. She describes it as being taken very seriously.

The Church of England is pervaded at all levels by the culture of deference. There should be no established church at all . There is no good enough reason to teach young people to defer to any adult simply because he or she wears a silly hat or a dog collar.

They should read the Report out instead of a sermon.

Cabbie21

Today was already designated as Safeguarding Sunday in the CofE. Very apposite. We heard a very relevant sermon, followed by a statement from our Safeguarding officer, outlining the importance and how policies are carried out locally. A hymn specially written was sung. It is being taken very seriously on a local level, and nationally too.

With respect -
If it's the abuse of scores boys and the resulting decades of cover-up by the church is being taken seriously more clergy MUST resign, and congregations should be calling for that.
Designating a day and singing a hymn really doesn't cut the mustard.

Good to hear. Grassroots upwards to re build. I know it doesn't solve the issues of current "high ups", but there has been so much criticism its good to hear.

Today was already designated as Safeguarding Sunday in the CofE. Very apposite. We heard a very relevant sermon, followed by a statement from our Safeguarding officer, outlining the importance and how policies are carried out locally. A hymn specially written was sung. It is being taken very seriously on a local level, and nationally too.

I wrote The following is not about anyone on GN . So you'll have to be happy with that and do your own research. Im all researched out.

RosiesMaw2

00opsidia

I have finished reading the Makin Report, all 253 pages of it.

The following is not about anyone on GN but I do wonder, how anyone can be passive/apathetic about this. To want to shut the conversation down and invalidate the suffering of the abused appalls me. If it was a war we would discuss it and feel empathy for the victims of war, to try and help them.

These abused have just as much psychological damage as victims of war. They deserve our support and not our silence, until those responsible for the cover up, do the right thing.

IS anybody in fact trying to do this?
Who is attempting to invalidate their suffering g or showing an absence of sympathy or empathy?
I believe we all believe those responsible should be held to account and - that nobody should think they can get away with inadequate safeguarding or protection from those they know.

Who is attempting to invalidate their suffering or showing an absence of sympathy or empathy?

No-one on here.
In fact, it's one thread where everyone seems to be in agreement for once.

00opsidia

I have finished reading the Makin Report, all 253 pages of it.

The following is not about anyone on GN but I do wonder, how anyone can be passive/apathetic about this. To want to shut the conversation down and invalidate the suffering of the abused appalls me. If it was a war we would discuss it and feel empathy for the victims of war, to try and help them.

These abused have just as much psychological damage as victims of war. They deserve our support and not our silence, until those responsible for the cover up, do the right thing.

IS anybody in fact trying to do this?
Who is attempting to invalidate their suffering g or showing an absence of sympathy or empathy?
I believe we all believe those responsible should be held to account and - that nobody should think they can get away with inadequate safeguarding or protection from those they know.

I think John Smyth's children had a miserable time of it. His eldest daughter ended up dying in her fourties.

Can't really comment on Evangelical C of E as haven't been involved with that, but I definitely agree that abusers can hide in churches and decieve a lot of people if they don't know what the bible says to warn of them. There are warnings about Wolves in sheeps clothing that scatter the sheep and about looking at someone's fruits to see if they are what they say they are.

Having said that, I was taken in by an abuser in the church when I was younger, so this is the older and wiser version of me saying so.

I wasted a big part of my life being with evangelicals and never feeling good about my self

Agree with ooopsidia above John Smyths children probably had a miserable upbringing and could be jus
t as confused and hurt perhaps as the victims The. evangelical part of the church of England is so black and white because Smythe probably claimed to have been born again he was free to abuseThis process of being so called born again is an easy thing for abusers to hide behind zWho questions them they are chosen by God and often very superior as a result

I have finished reading the Makin Report, all 253 pages of it.

The following is not about anyone on GN but I do wonder, how anyone can be passive/apathetic about this. To want to shut the conversation down and invalidate the suffering of the abused appalls me. If it was a war we would discuss it and feel empathy for the victims of war, to try and help them.

These abused have just as much psychological damage as victims of war. They deserve our support and not our silence, until those responsible for the cover up, do the right thing.

I've just read the "recommendations" section.
lawandreligionuk.com/2024/11/13/makin-review-summary-of-recommendations/

It says a great deal about safeguarding and responsibility - but as far as I can tell, does not address the question of identifying or dealing with those currently under suspicion.

It does however say

"Ensuring independent oversight of the implementation of safeguarding measures,

including the development of a wholly independent body,

free from direct influence by senior Church officers, to guide the development of the Church’s safeguarding procedures"

It seems to me that only a rapid establishment of such a body could take the task on.

Meanwhile, for the ordinary and decent people in the church to get on with safeguarding procedures and continuing the good work that many churches do.

The thing is yes, there are decent people, of course.

If I was a teacher I would not expect the headmaster to take the blame for my cover up. All of these people who are still "hiding in plain sight" are a blight on the C of E and it is an offence to all of the good and kind people who are innocent. It will be hard for people to trust the organization unless those responsible stop hiding and come out.

Unfortunately John Smyth's son PJ, was unable to continue working in the church after Monument Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland after they discovered he had not disclosed his background and they also had concerns about his character, though they acknowledge he is a victim and they blame his background for his behavour.

I do feel so sorry for all of his children. I think being "respectable" made it worse. I'll always remember the Mcganns who were never challenged even though they failed to do what was best for their kids even though they were not abusers, but when it's someone on a council estate the kids are actually taken away and given to someone who can love them and bring them up properly.

Somebody had to have noticed the kids were abused and didn't act. (Because JS seemed "so nice" )

So awful and so sad.

foxie48

I said in a previous post that abusers are attracted to organisations which give them access and power so it's hardly surprising that these organisations have a problem. This is why they need to have excellent safeguarding policies which are strictly adhered to. Whoever is the head of the organisation is responsible for ensuring this is enforced but it doesn't let others off the hook as it's the job of everyone else in the organisation to play their part. So yes, anyone who covered up the abuse and therefore allowed Smythe to continue has to be sanctioned. This will send a strong message to everyone about the consequences of ignoring uncomfortable situations and will ensure that abusers will no longer think that the church of England is a soft touch.
Fwiw I think the Co E is a pretty toxic place ATM, Welby's had a rough ride trying to keep it together and I'm sorry to see him go but his position was untenable. There was a Trip Leading interview with him recently which I nearly didn't listen to but I'm glad I did. He will extract a high payment from himself for the mistake he made in not following up on these accusations of abuse and I suspect it will be more than society would expect. Whoever follows him will need to be a strong person.

Just wanted to say I agree with this. There are also many decent people in the C of E or ordinary church attenders who only want to express their faith or indeed join in initiatives such as local charitable ones.
They too will want justice but also resolution to be able to move forward. (I'm not a christian, btw, or C of E, but I do respect those of the sort I've mentioned)

It will b hard to choose a new leader. There are deep fits in the church becuase some of the overseas bishops have different views on say women or gay people in the church. Still unresolved.
Welby may have failed terribly and inexcusably on Smyth, but he was also someone who took the challenges on I mentioned.

Four Zimbabweans were hanged for the murder of Andy Shaw, who disagreed with Smyth and left his organisation. Andy was killed from a blow to the back of his head while praying and although his wife initially thought it was Smyth who murdered him, it was the Zimbabweans who took the blame. Who knows.

Andy Shaw's widow, Pamela wrote a book called Home Before You, to talk about her family's suffering.

There are so many victims in this terrible cover up.

It's sickening isn't it but absolutely not confined to the CoE.

Yes, unfortunately many abusers hide in plain sight, so you would never suspect it. The worst is that they have their wealth and privilege, high position of power, so the victim feels they won't be believed over them.

I'm now on page 150 of 253 on the Makin Report. This abuser/barrister even threatened the church with legal action. So far I haven't seen much about God or doing the right thing , only concerns about hushing it all up. I've got to the bit where the African boy died and also Andy Shaw was murdered in 1995 after disagreeing with Smyth ( Andy's wife thought it was Smyth but no proof)

I'll keep reading...

Religions were organised by men, for men. Why would they be any different in a patriarchal world? Their rules are mostly social constructs designed to maintain male dominance and the perceived "natural order" of things. It's the same for all organised (and most pagan) religions and has been for thousands of years. It's not going to change any time soon. They've got it all sewn up.