Assisted dying bill

MissAdventure

Not forgetting that all this man could move was his eyes,
Does that mean he would be denied the choice?
He was tube fed, so unable to refuse to drink, would someone put the meds into his tube?

As I say, I'm on the fence about it, just pointing out that it rarely a black or white decision.
So many grey areas to account for.

As I say, I'm on the fence about it, just pointing out that it rarely a black or white decision.
So many grey areas to account for.

Again, I agree with you.

What worries me is that this bill is being considered at a time of national economic crisis - you know, all those painful and difficult choices, and the black hole the government has been banging on about, and one of the first moves was to remove the WFA from all but the poorest pensioners. Some are looking around for people to blame - and the intergenerational 'warfare' is an now an established method of stoking the divide between the working population and the elderly. State pensions devour the largest part of the welfare bill. And there are fears being articulated from some quarters that we will see the hospital 'bed-blocking' by old people - due of course, to the chaotic state of the care system.

I's just an awful economic environment in which to allay the fears of those who feel that old and very sick people might not be protected by the suggested safeguards that would be put in place.

I don't feel I have the right to decide that another person should suffer a long, lingering and painful end though because of my feelings about the matter.

... but, I'm still on the fence, like you.

Galaxy

If people impose their beliefs that assisted dying is ok, then those beliefs will negatively impact the most vulnerable in society.
I dont believe the reassurances. They put inappropriate DNR s on people with learning disabilities during covid.

I don’t think I trust any reassurances either.

Not forgetting that all this man could move was his eyes,
Does that mean he would be denied the choice?
He was tube fed, so unable to refuse to drink, would someone put the meds into his tube?

As I say, I'm on the fence about it, just pointing out that it rarely a black or white decision.
So many grey areas to account for.

I think this would be such a comfort to those who have a terminal condition. The knowledge that should things get too bad you can choose to end it.

Fleurpepper

Miss A, so he would not ahve asked for assisted dying and would not have drunk the lethal potion- his choice.

People assumed, his family included, that he was not capable of making a choice, and as he hade made blatantly clear before in earlier discussions what he would have chosen, he was very nearly withdrawn from life preserving assistance.

Maybe not the case now, with the way things have advanced, and really a quite different situation, but it struck me how very wrong people could be, how close he was to the wrong decision being made, with the very best of intentions.

Choice is a fallacy, Muslims might want the choice for 4 wives....allowable in Islam....and the "white right" likely to be apoplectic at the mere suggestion. The choice also exists to drink and smoke ourselves to death. The Quran also says to have saved one life is to have saved humanity. I don't believe people understand choice. Margaret Thatcher's election made me understand that fact. More recently Brexit and Trump - All under the illusion of choice. Knowing many people in the health professions, one thing is clear people are not rational. Even educated families can be dysfunctional
Even getting people to take regular medication outside of a hospital setting is difficult. Elderly people are treated abominably anyway and government safeguards don't work. Getting a doctor out for my parents years ago was a nightmare, only until the end did visits take place. That was also because muslims are not allowed a post mortem.

Quokka

Kalm

With respect I am saying the "choice" should not be available to any Muslim. The Muslim has the "rooh" in the soul, that is what makes the inanimate molecules come alive during conception. Allah decides the entry and exit point of the soul.
After death the departed soul enters a state of limbo known as barzakh until the day of reckoning. Secularists or humanists believe life ends at the grave, a Muslim doesn't. The Quran clearly says "....He gives life and causes death, and to Him you shall be brought back. (10:56)"

With respect you do what you want to do or what your religion dictates; but those of us who have free will want to exercise that choice.

I don't think any such bill could, realistically, legally exclude Muslims.

Nor should it.

How a Muslim interprets the Quran is his or her business. It has been interpreted in various ways - throughout history.

MissAdventure

So if the current situation is very far from ideal, is it the right time to be introducing something as far reaching as assisted dying, or whatever it will be called?

Obviously choices made by people who are suffering pain, indifference, confusion about who to turn to, lack of, or poor care aren't going to be carefully thought out and considered, and done for the right reasons.

Obviously choices made by people who are suffering pain, indifference, confusion about who to turn to, lack of, or poor care aren't going to be carefully thought out and considered, and done for the right reasons.

Good point MissAdventure.

If this bill were being considered against a backdrop of well-integrated and effective hospice / palliative care, available to all and any who needed it, you could say people would be making choices in a totally different environment.

But, as the fairly recent Marie Curie report on end-of-life care indicates, this isn't the case.

It provides clear evidence that too many people are unable to access the joined-up care and support they and their unpaid carers need at the end of life. Community support for palliative care is inadequate, with GP and District Nursing services stretched beyond capacity.

There are no two ways about it: care for dying people is in crisis.

Not good is it?

In fact, the whole care-system - community care, nursing-home care is a mess. A mess that successive governments have simply kicked into the long grass whilst making promises to fix it.

Kalm

With respect I am saying the "choice" should not be available to any Muslim. The Muslim has the "rooh" in the soul, that is what makes the inanimate molecules come alive during conception. Allah decides the entry and exit point of the soul.
After death the departed soul enters a state of limbo known as barzakh until the day of reckoning. Secularists or humanists believe life ends at the grave, a Muslim doesn't. The Quran clearly says "....He gives life and causes death, and to Him you shall be brought back. (10:56)"

With respect you do what you want to do or what your religion dictates; but those of us who have free will want to exercise that choice.

With respect I am saying the "choice" should not be available to any Muslim. The Muslim has the "rooh" in the soul, that is what makes the inanimate molecules come alive during conception. Allah decides the entry and exit point of the soul.
After death the departed soul enters a state of limbo known as barzakh until the day of reckoning. Secularists or humanists believe life ends at the grave, a Muslim doesn't. The Quran clearly says "....He gives life and causes death, and to Him you shall be brought back. (10:56)"

It’s about time in fact way overdue.

Too many situations where pain cannot be controlled. I recently had my beloved dog put to sleep; I loved him too much to let him suffer.

It’s about choice over our own bodies.

oh I see. Yes, wrong, some people do change their mind. And this is respected.

Kalm, I said someone's God, because attitudes are different depending on religion, and even within religions. No disrespect there at all. I have many beloved members of my family who are Muslims, and I know they would feel very differently to me/us. And we all respect each other.

No-one wants to impose secular values on you. And neither should others impose religious values (of whichever denomination) on others who are not religious. Which is why the current bill would allow individuals to make a clear choice, aligned to their own values and moral framework, religious or not. Nothing but nothing, would be imposed on anyone, just a choice for those who wish it.

Privileged who use the word 'choice' like 'confetti'? That is so wrong. What is massively privileged, is the choice for a few, with sufficient money, to spend £12 to 15000 to travel to Switzerland and avail themselves of that choice. Now that is unfair, and hugely privileged, for the few who can afford it. Fair?

Fleurpepper someone said strongly held views don't change. They do. I gave an example and you've explained that is catered for as they can change their mind. I can't see what is complicated about that.

To put it another way do you agree that the person who said people don't change their mind was wrong?

When someone's god decides ? Not sure what that means. I don't want secular values imposed upon me or fellow muslims either; unless the perpetrators are islamophobic or anti-semitic. In this debate I would also allow "people of knowledge" like the BMA, RCN unlike MP's who are often a little short of a full shilling.

keepingquiet

I find the whole thing terrifying.

I know if my MP votes in favour I will never vote for her again.

I sincerely hope mine does! What I find more terrifying is the prospect of suffering the same kind of long, lingering death as my mother and MiL. It should be a question of my body, my choice.

theworriedwell

@Fleurpepper Id just read a post saying strongly held opinions don't change. They do.

I am sorry, the worriedwell, I just do not understand your post.

If anyone changes their mind, right up to the last minute, they would be free to do so.

Has any country introduced this type of law and it hasn't changed over time with the safeguards being weakened.

Galaxy 👍

@Fleurpepper Id just read a post saying strongly held opinions don't change. They do.

keepingquiet

I find the whole thing terrifying.

I know if my MP votes in favour I will never vote for her again.

Why is it terrifying that people would be allowed to make their own choice? I just don't understand why other people's choices, in very specific circumstances, and with clear guidelines and safeguards, can ,'terrify' you.

I think people who are privileged, throw the word choice around like confetti. It's a bit similar to the oh prostitution is a choice debate, they dont seem to understand that for some groups choice is so small it is almost invisible.

I find the whole thing terrifying.

I know if my MP votes in favour I will never vote for her again.

Miss A, so he would not ahve asked for assisted dying and would not have drunk the lethal potion- his choice.

theworriedwell

Story I heard from a COVID ward. Retired doctor who had always promoted DNRs and against fighting the inevitable. When told he wouldn't be getting a place in ICU and a ventilator due to his age and little hope of survival his life time beliefs went straight out the window. He wanted every treatment going and wanted to fight till the end. Who knows how we will feel in that position.

And in this case, then he would continue to live, if he chose to. He would have to make the request himself, and have to take the potion himself- so the choice would be his.

This just cannot be compared to DNR or not- where the person themselves make that clear decision themselves- not the doctor. Nothing to do with euthanasia either.

There are many cases in Switzerland of people changing their mind on the day, and when asked, clearly and videoed- that they are absolutely sure this is what they want, and that there is no way back - some say 'actually, I am not ready' - and they choose to continue to live, either for a bit longer, or until natural death (although in modern times, 'natural' is a strange word, as medically assisted living is not natural at all, but ...).

It is such a pity that dying which is a natural event, should sometimes be agonising even with the best of pain killers.