Assisted dying bill

There will be strict rules, have rules never been broken ?

Anniebach

There will be strict rules, have rules never been broken ?

That is my fear Annie

Very much mine GrannyGravy, a widow/widower moves into a nursing home, their house will be sold !

I plan to horde as much prescription medication as I can in case this bill doesn’t get through. I might in any case as it only covers terminal illness and not living with intolerable suffering.
I believe strongly that I have the right to end my own life if it becomes unbearable. I love life but fear dying slowly and in fear even more. There are clearly enough safeguards in the bill that people aren’t coerced and request to end their lives of their own free will.
I’ve seen both parents linger and suffer and I don’t want to do that to my daughter.

Anniebach

Very much mine GrannyGravy, a widow/widower moves into a nursing home, their house will be sold !

That happens anyway at the moment, so I'm not sure what that has to do with assisted dying. Having had to watch both my mother and mother in law die long, slow drawn-out deaths from dementia, it is not something I would wish to put my own children through. We do not allow our beloved pets to go on suffering when there is no hope left - in fact, to do so would be classed as neglect - so why do we find it acceptable to allow humans to suffer? Excellent palliative care is, as others have said, a bit of a lottery, and under the proposals, no medical professional would actually be 'killing' anyone. I am totally in favour of this. If I could have put my mother out of her misery, I would have. Should I find myself in that position, I'd like the option to die with dignity.

Freya5

Smileless2012

It has nothing to do with deliberately killing anyone and no doctor would be forced into taking part against their wishes.

Well what would you call it. So who will "volunteer"
Euthanasia
"Depending on the circumstances, euthanasia is regarded as either manslaughter or murder. The maximum penalty is life imprisonment."
From NHS site on this subject.

No-one, as it will have to be self administered.

One aspect which is rarely discussed, is the fact that once people know they will eventually have the choice, and especially without the need to be fit enough to travel to Switzerland, they will very often actually choose to live longer, to bear with the pain and loss of dignity longer- safe in the knowledge that the final choice will be theirs, if, and when. The fear of a horrible, painful death, and long period of extreme loss of quality of life and dignity- is taken away, and allows to sustain the above much longer than otherwise.

I saw my DH suffer in agony with secondary bone cancer. The morphine didn't help. Whether he would have chosen to die sooner I will never know but he may have decided to do that to end our suffering. He knew that we were all going through hell with him. I'm glad that he didn't have the option to end his own life.

Fleurpepper

One aspect which is rarely discussed, is the fact that once people know they will eventually have the choice, and especially without the need to be fit enough to travel to Switzerland, they will very often actually choose to live longer, to bear with the pain and loss of dignity longer- safe in the knowledge that the final choice will be theirs, if, and when. The fear of a horrible, painful death, and long period of extreme loss of quality of life and dignity- is taken away, and allows to sustain the above much longer than otherwise.

Exactly, that is a very good point indeed. And of course, not everyone has the financial means to be able to go down the Switzerland route.

AGAA4- I am so so sorry you had to witness you father is such pain and that the morphine didn't help in the end.

But I truly do not understand your last sentence at all. Sincerely and with all my heart, I do not. Why?

I would far rather they get the current system up to standard, no one should die in pain, the drugs are available to prevent this.

I don't think they are made available all the time; there are too many reports of agonizing deaths to believe this. And what if a person is feeling so much pain that the dose to alleviate it would hasten their end? The patient would be refused it if this bill doesn't go through.

And don't forget there are some cancers where the drugs just don't work - bone cancer, or when a cancer spreads to the bones, for example. Palliative care isn't the answer for a lot of people. So they should have the choice.

There are other factors, too. I had breast cancer 15 years ago now. I went for a chemo session and on my way in to the hospital, saw a woman outside clinging on to her drip chatting to her friend. She was Green. It reminded me of when I came round from my op - some of my skin was green and the nurse told me it was just a reaction to the morphine.

This led me to assume I would go green if I was ever in that woman's position, dying and hooked up to morphine. And it horrified me that my grandchildren would see me green.

Besides the pain, I don't want that to happen. No few months longer left on earth would be worth that.

Anniebach

It is deliberate killing, a person wants to die so their life will be
taken

The idea is that the person will self administer the necessary drug. At the moment is intended for those with 6 months or less to live and so many life threatening diseases are excluded.

I believe passionately in the right to end my own life and have enough barbiturates to do it several times over. I dont need to go to court and ask doctors and judges to authorize it.

When the time comes I will make my own arrangements. When you live alone its not a problem as you dont involve anyone else and put them at risk. You just tell people your going away for a few days. The great thing about mobiles is that no one knows where you are calling from. So you can tell them you arrived safely at "your friends" house. By the time they realise they havnt heard back from you the deed is done.

My father died of terminal cancer aged 55. He was in hospital and a room was put aside for us to stay in. I was visiting him when he had a fit and was told that he probably would die that night.In fact he last for 7 days and we took it in turns to be with him.

This was 40 years ago and I still remember that week. When the morphine wore off he would be distressed until given another a dose. He was like a bag of bones. I think that in the end the doctors did over dose him. The notes on the end of the bed said "Family TLC" and the staff were certainly very kind to us.

For myself, whether palliative care was excellent or not, if I had a terminal illness with a short time left to me, I would want to end my life. The life force varies so much from person to person that we cannot say definitively what should happen to everyone but each person should have a choice.

When my FIL reached 90, having been widowed some years before, he suddenly said that there should be a dispenser where you could put in some money and receive the appropriate drug. He was not ill at that point but a year or so later he was discovered that he had cancer, related to asbestos from WW2. The doctors wanted to do more tests and were shocked when we said no. There is no point in putting him through further treatment at his age. He certainly didn't want it.

biglouis

I believe passionately in the right to end my own life and have enough barbiturates to do it several times over. I dont need to go to court and ask doctors and judges to authorize it.

When the time comes I will make my own arrangements. When you live alone its not a problem as you dont involve anyone else and put them at risk. You just tell people your going away for a few days. The great thing about mobiles is that no one knows where you are calling from. So you can tell them you arrived safely at "your friends" house. By the time they realise they havnt heard back from you the deed is done.

I respect that. Most people do not have access to barbiturates however, and the method they choose often involves others unfortunately, who have to live with it for the rest of their life (train drivers come to mind). And 'home made' methods, which will probably involve family finding them- and they have to live with those images and feelings forever.

If I ever feel that there is no onger hope, but just more pain and more loss of dignity- I'd want my children to have the choice to be there or not, and would never want them to find me (will not use describing words here). We have always been open in our family- and we have discussed the 'what ifs' with our ACs and older teenage GCs- and they all totally respect our wishes and agree.

Fortunately, this choice would be open to us, in our own home, and just as we would wish. They have said they would wish to accompany us, but of course could change their mind, which we would respect.

I hope to die in my sleep, but knowing that the choice would be mine if ever - is a huge relief. DH feels the same, and he has seen some truly awful deaths in his past career.

BTW, I pay about £40 a year, and if ever- proper support before and on the day, would be totally free, and in my own home, or in hospital or Care Home or palliative care centre. With every single safeguard, interviews before and on the day recorded, and me accepting the deed would be final also recorded, and handed to police and the Judge straight after.

I have made advanced directives too, my GP has a copy, and so has my DH and our solicitor.

The concoction needed is 3/4 of a pint of very caustic fluids, which need to be taken quickly, I saw yesterday.

It's important that people also know the facts regarding this, so that they don't imagine floating gently away.

biglouis...I respect your right in the method you choose to end your life, but finding somebody who has committed suicide is quite traumatic.

MissAdventure

The concoction needed is 3/4 of a pint of very caustic fluids, which need to be taken quickly, I saw yesterday.

It's important that people also know the facts regarding this, so that they don't imagine floating gently away.

Not as much as that, and not caustic, but bitter. And yes, they do ^float away gently' - very much so. It is also possible to administer intraveinously, and for the person to just trigger the action. No bitterness and even faster. The method used by Pegasos, in Switzerland.

Hmm, well I'll find a link and post it.
When I can remember,

biglouis

I believe passionately in the right to end my own life and have enough barbiturates to do it several times over. I dont need to go to court and ask doctors and judges to authorize it.

When the time comes I will make my own arrangements. When you live alone its not a problem as you dont involve anyone else and put them at risk. You just tell people your going away for a few days. The great thing about mobiles is that no one knows where you are calling from. So you can tell them you arrived safely at "your friends" house. By the time they realise they havnt heard back from you the deed is done.

I respect that. You hopefully had a good or at least tolerable life and now you are choosing to have a good death. For so many this isn't an option. And I for one don't want to have to rely upon the medical profession to give me a good death when I have several friends who died a terrible death because palliative care wasn't up to scratch, others were given a wonderful care at the end, but it isn't consistent and I don't want to sign up to a lottery.
Like you I want to have that final choice.

Fleurpepper

AGAA4- I am so so sorry you had to witness you father is such pain and that the morphine didn't help in the end.

But I truly do not understand your last sentence at all. Sincerely and with all my heart, I do not. Why?

I believe my husband (not my father) would have wanted to die naturally which he did 18 months after the few months he was given. The reason I think he may have wanted to die sooner was to spare our then 11 year old daughter from the trauma of watching him suffer as well as our other children.
For myself I would definitely want the choice of ending a life that had become unbearable.

I know my mother would have taken the option of assisted dying, had it been available to her. She had stated so on many occasions before the dementia took hold of her - having cared for relatives with dementia in the past, and she did not want to go that way.

I really feel uncomfortable reading words like choice, rights and dignity here.

We don't choose when we're born. We come into the world completely helpless and wouldn't survive if it wasn't for the care of others- maybe parents, maybe others, dependent on the circumstances but no one would walk past an abandoned new born infant. We would want to care for it. This is human nature.

To me then, how can it be for the betterment of humanity that we fool ourselves into thinking we can 'choose' to die?

Dying takes all sorts of forms, and let's face it we have no control over the actions of others that might eventually cause that death. If we are dependent on the signatures of two doctors (and what is the criteria upon which those doctors are 'chosen?) and one judge then the control has been handed to them, not us.

Choice is a mirage, therefore, except for the very rich who can pay their way for such things.

Then there is this word, 'dignity.' Of course we would all hope to die, as we may or may not have lived, with 'dignity.'

To say assisted dying is a way to go with dignity then the implication is that just dying naturally, as a result of illness or old age, has no dignity?

It seems to me that some in society are building an illusion of control and dignity because so many don't have direct experience of death, or have been badly let down by those who should have cared better, or even believe that death should be clean and clinical, like having a quick fix, or going to the dentist.

I find the whole thing abhorrent.

However, this isn't about me or my moral, spiritual or social values. It is about how we as a society care for the weak, the sick and the vulnerable. We may all be so one day.

If this bill passes, soon there will be a call for amendments and extensions etc and the momentum of this kind of narrow thinking will get carried away with itself.

When I think of these calls for choice, rights, and dignity I think of Rob Burrows. If you haven't heard of him then look him up. He raised awareness of Motor neurone disease for which there are now multiple research studies being undertaken. He raised millions for improved medical and nursing care. He showed great dignity in his illness and gradual decline and never once spoke of choice or rights. His family and friends showed what it is to care and live with dignity.

I'm really on the fence about it, but I do know that a natural death is often not dignified at all.