Trump wanting us to ditch Europe.

What does it have to do with him?

Aren't we still a separate nation state and didn't we vote for Brexit to get our 'sovereignty' back? Now it seems we can hand it to the US instead...?

David49

Grantanow

Of course Brexit was a serious blunder fuelled by lies about sovereignty, money for the NHS, etc. But it's unlikely the EU would let us rejoin any time soon - they have other things to worry about and we would never get the advantageous terms renegotiated by Thatcher. So the best we can hope for is some agreements about equivalence to reduce red tape and inspections, etc., at the border. I hope Starmer has the backbone to push that through as a minimum. Military cooperation might be another area alongside NATO but our diminished strength undermines that.

EU membership is a generation away, if ever and the political situation cannot be predicted. There are many ways that the relationship can be improved, it must be clear by now that a special trade relationship with the US or anyone else is not going to happen.

EU membership is a generation away, if ever and the political situation cannot be predicted.

I believe you're right. And the political climate would have to change enormously before we'd even be considered, we're not collectively in the 'mood' to be team-players at the moment - we're still in Great Britain Going It Alone mode.

There are many ways that the relationship can be improved, it must be clear by now that a special trade relationship with the US or anyone else is not going to happen.

I think the relationship can be improved, and should be, not just for the sake of business and the economy, but also for intel and security. But I imagine many red-blooded Eurosceptics, like Rees-Mogg and Truss (who appears to be operating from the Tufton Street manual), and other associated die-hards, will do their best to prevent it. They would quite happily see us isolated from "socialist" Europe and at the mercy of Trump's 'America-First'.

Grantanow

Of course Brexit was a serious blunder fuelled by lies about sovereignty, money for the NHS, etc. But it's unlikely the EU would let us rejoin any time soon - they have other things to worry about and we would never get the advantageous terms renegotiated by Thatcher. So the best we can hope for is some agreements about equivalence to reduce red tape and inspections, etc., at the border. I hope Starmer has the backbone to push that through as a minimum. Military cooperation might be another area alongside NATO but our diminished strength undermines that.

EU membership is a generation away, if ever and the political situation cannot be predicted. There are many ways that the relationship can be improved, it must be clear by now that a special trade relationship with the US or anyone else is not going to happen.

"It will make a difference for British business to have better and more profitable access in Europe."

You can bet on that Wyllow! My son is a business man who, besides selling within this island, also exports to the continent of Europe, and he has actual evidence Brexit was and continues to be bad for his business.

It's part of the Labour Party Manifesto, Grantanow, to negotiate best tariff, customs, red tape etc. but it's not a quick fix. I do get frustrated when people make snap judgements about progress on this when it's clearly very complicated.

We took 4 years from the Brexit vote messing European partners around before finally "leaving"

and yet people criticise Starmer (as in wimp, weak) for not making significant changes in 6 months?

It will make a difference for British business to have better and more profitable access in Europe.

And yes, NATO has a complex time ahead.

Big Louis wrote:
"One of the few things I like about Trump is his rhetoric about putting his own country first. We should do the same. There are far too much money flowing out of this country into the hands of corrupt foreign warlords or being squandered on third world wars. We have out own to look after."

When all nations look out for themselves then all nations lose the benefit of the common good.

The US can support isolationism simply because it is so powerful. and to an extent economically self sufficient.

In 2024 isolationism does not work. Trump and Co are climate change deniers. But climate straddles national boundaries.

Of course Brexit was a serious blunder fuelled by lies about sovereignty, money for the NHS, etc. But it's unlikely the EU would let us rejoin any time soon - they have other things to worry about and we would never get the advantageous terms renegotiated by Thatcher. So the best we can hope for is some agreements about equivalence to reduce red tape and inspections, etc., at the border. I hope Starmer has the backbone to push that through as a minimum. Military cooperation might be another area alongside NATO but our diminished strength undermines that.

Oreo

The Tories aren’t in power here.

No, but they caused most of the issues we face NOW.

Oreo

Am assuming you made a jokey comment about the Chinese owning Australia David49 but if not then you must know that Chinese fingers are in the pie with every country with a good economy in the world.

Not just those with a good economy. They own the biggest port in the Med (Piraeus) but the biggest concern is the fact that they practically own North Macedonia.
Eventually North Macedonia will join the EU, and then what 🤷‍♀️

Exactly Dickens - that was the point I tried to make (perhaps not very well).

‘Accepting’ the outcome of a democratic vote does not mean ‘never discussing it again’.

For 8 years those who have tried to discuss Brexit have been called ‘Remoaners’ (and worse); been told to ‘get over it’, ‘move on’, ‘just accept it’ etc.

I do accept the outcome of the referendum but I refuse to be told there’s ’nothing to discuss’.

Sarnia

LizzieDrip

Sarnia if the outcome of a democratic vote means ‘nothing to discuss’, why is there thread after thread on GN moaning about discussing the outcome of our recent democratic election?

Exactly. No matter how we voted Brexit was born and we have to accept that otherwise why have a referendum?

Exactly. No matter how we voted Brexit was born and we have to accept that...

... in the same way the Eurosceptics accepted the 1975 result to continued EC membership? Which was, incidentally, decided by a majority of over 8 million voters.

They had concerns - some legitimate - so they hammered away for 40 or so years. Because that's how democracy works. And look - they won. By a much lower majority, though.

Accepting the result does not mean that we must never talk about it - it was the biggest constitutional change for us in decades and the ramifications are still being felt.

By 'acceptance' - do you mean that those who are involved in the movement to 're-join' should be banned from it, and the campaign / movement should not be allowed to exist?

I have no skin in the game, I am not a re-joiner, but I am arguing because I really don't understand what you, or anyone else, means when they talk about acceptance.

See my post at Sun 17-Nov-24 09:47:19 for the figures.

ronib

Having spent a few minutes looking at the import/export table link provided by Casdon, I don’t understand the argument that we are isolated and not trading with Europe. Germany is very involved with the UK. The USA is our biggest market both import/export so how can we throw a flounce because Trump is in?
And I guess everyone else knows that the USA has an absolutely huge 31.46 trillion deficit which makes ours look tiny? Happy days….

Did you notice that the amount of trade we do with the EU as a whole is far more than the amount we do with the USA, Ronib ? witheach EU contry it is less than with the US, but when all the EU countries are added together the total is much greater.

Perhaps if each US state were listed separately, as are the EU countries, the comparison would be more obvious.

Together we stand, divided we fall.

I hope we work with Europe which is on our doorstep and is our biggest trade area.
If we end up with a health system like America, and that will be their plan, we are doomed.

We need to stick to the policy of increasing trade and security arrangements with our nearest neighbours, which as pointed out, are not all EU. (Like Norway, it's quite possible). Sovereignty not lost.

If The new US administration tries to do some sort of ideologically motivated deal which lets us off" huge tariffs in exchange for breaking relationships with Europe, we shouldn't give in to blackmail.

ronib

Having spent a few minutes looking at the import/export table link provided by Casdon, I don’t understand the argument that we are isolated and not trading with Europe. Germany is very involved with the UK. The USA is our biggest market both import/export so how can we throw a flounce because Trump is in?
And I guess everyone else knows that the USA has an absolutely huge 31.46 trillion deficit which makes ours look tiny? Happy days….

Look at the figures again, ronib

The EU and non EU European countries are far greater import and export markets for the UK than the US (with about equivalent populations)

It was a jokey comment about Australia l do love Aussie wine but realistically most of their produce goes to China and other places closer

mae13

mum2three

One of the main reasons we (or some of us) voted to leave the EU was because we do not want someone dictating to us. We must remain an independant country, in charge of our own affairs.
While I welcome the election of Trump, he is the American president, not ours.
Starmer is proving to be exactly what so many people feared....weak and indecisive. He is too easily influenced by others.

Starmer makes me think of the Spitting Image tiny David Steel puppet living in the top pocket of a bigger and more flamboyant politician, whose name I cannot remember for the life of me.

The now Lord Steel is supposed to have claimed it ruined his career. Starmer will go the same way.

You’re funny mae13. Like this, you mean?
m.youtube.com/watch?v=AC0IgwmsRSE

Having spent a few minutes looking at the import/export table link provided by Casdon, I don’t understand the argument that we are isolated and not trading with Europe. Germany is very involved with the UK. The USA is our biggest market both import/export so how can we throw a flounce because Trump is in?
And I guess everyone else knows that the USA has an absolutely huge 31.46 trillion deficit which makes ours look tiny? Happy days….

The Tories aren’t in power here.

Careful what you wish for. Tories will definitely suck up to Trump, BIG, massive times. What sort of 'independence' is that.

And even more totally isolated in Europe.

mum2three

One of the main reasons we (or some of us) voted to leave the EU was because we do not want someone dictating to us. We must remain an independant country, in charge of our own affairs.
While I welcome the election of Trump, he is the American president, not ours.
Starmer is proving to be exactly what so many people feared....weak and indecisive. He is too easily influenced by others.

Starmer makes me think of the Spitting Image tiny David Steel puppet living in the top pocket of a bigger and more flamboyant politician, whose name I cannot remember for the life of me.

The now Lord Steel is supposed to have claimed it ruined his career. Starmer will go the same way.

I was merely pointing out a very long term problem expressed by farmers for a long time as regards competition from cheaper sources. Australian food products meet some of our food standards but not others

Allira

David49

nanna8

Hey, why don’t they look at Australia? Trade more with us. We’re reliable and would never have any weirdos as our leaders because we are super conventional. Our wine is beautiful, so is our olive oil and so is our meat. After all the UK already runs most of our private health system ( BUPA ) and then there’s Specsavers.

I thought most of Australia was owned by the Chinese these days, when they say jump you say how high!.

🤔

David49
Before criticising Australia, have you investigated just how much of UK business is Chinese owned or partly-owned?

It’s not hard to find Chinese run businesses in surprising places, not on the scale of Australia or NZ, foreign ownership is routine in the UK.

Wyllow3

erm...ask our farmers?

They’re too busy planning what they will do to get Starmer to change his mind on the new jaw dropping idea to stick it to them on inheritance tax.
All cos Reeves decided pre election to assure voters that IT and NI wouldn’t go up! Scrabbling around now to claw money back by other means including the measly amount they save by not paying pensioners the WFA.
If we want good things we had to pay more in IT and/or NI.