Elon Musk giving Reform $100m

I suspect that the leaders of all the other countries were worried that our exit might lead to other countries leaving. As it happens it did not have that effect, on the contrary it made many inhabitants of those other countries realise how much better off they were in the EU.

What has happened in Ukrains since and the prospect of four more years of Trump has made the inhabitants of EU countriesrealise the advantages of being part of a large block with economic power, rather than a small unattached country living off its imperial past.

I can remember seeing some Frexit posters in France around the time of Brexit. I haven't seen any since then.

It does, however, seem a shame when our country gets talked down in this way though.

What would you like to talk up please?

The UK, its a great country!

The executive wouldn't but the electorate might, because 'the grass is always greener..........'

BevSec

The UK, its a great country!

Would you care to be specific. Every country is a great country, even Andorra or Lichtenstein, but what does that tell you? zilch.

The UK a great country spoiled by polititians that are incredibly inept and wasteful, the political choices they have made over last 40 yrs or so have been disgraceful. It started with Thatcher closing down our core industries and giving away council houses, Blair supported deregulation and crashed the economy, austerity and Brexit with Cameron and Johnson.

We would be so much better off if different decisions had been made, the political gain was put first but economic gain disregarded. Starmer is now trying to put the economic agenda first but there is so much to be done and will struggle.

We keep coming back to 'It's the economy, stupid'. One of the key problems with the EU (and the UK and the US) is that they are all following the same school of economic ideology which promotes the interests of wealth over the interests of the general population and in which money continually flows upward.

Not only do we have to contend with the almost static situation this engenders, i.e. the poor remain poor, the middling sorts remain middling and the rich get ever richer, but when countries fail to achieve economic growth and go into recession the cure that the ruling ideology implements is to cut state spending on the grounds that it can't be afforded and make the economy and the conditions of all but the wealthy even worse.

This leads to inequality, and resentment among those who don't benefit and makes them vulnerable to populist simplistic, convincing sounding 'solutions' to their problems.

Not that the populists have a solution for their economic woes because they subscribe to the same economic ideology which produced the problem..

I'm currently reading an excellent recent biography of JM Keynes, one if our greatest economists. From post WW1, where he was involved in the negotiations for reparations and repaying of massive US war loans to Britain and our allies, through the Stock Market crash and the Great Depression he constantly advocated spending to recover a failing economy and watched in despair as his advice was ignored and fascism took over in the most impoverished European countries. With the result that Europe was back in full scale war less than 30 years after 'The War to end all Wars'.

The only country to take his advice was the US where Roosevelt's New Deal put an end to the Depression and revitalised the US economy.

Post war Britain, until the late 1970s followed Keynes' precepts and was on a rising tide of prosperity and greater equality until the peculiar circumstances of the '70s made the populace receptive to Thatcher's opposing economic ideology

.

M0nica

BevSec

The UK, its a great country!

Would you care to be specific. Every country is a great country, even Andorra or Lichtenstein, but what does that tell you? zilch.

I am afraid I cannot give economic statistics, just think we are lucky really in our quality of life here. It just seems a shame that some think we are only worth while if we belong to the EU.

MaizieD

We keep coming back to 'It's the economy, stupid'. One of the key problems with the EU (and the UK and the US) is that they are all following the same school of economic ideology which promotes the interests of wealth over the interests of the general population and in which money continually flows upward.

Not only do we have to contend with the almost static situation this engenders, i.e. the poor remain poor, the middling sorts remain middling and the rich get ever richer, but when countries fail to achieve economic growth and go into recession the cure that the ruling ideology implements is to cut state spending on the grounds that it can't be afforded and make the economy and the conditions of all but the wealthy even worse.

This leads to inequality, and resentment among those who don't benefit and makes them vulnerable to populist simplistic, convincing sounding 'solutions' to their problems.

Not that the populists have a solution for their economic woes because they subscribe to the same economic ideology which produced the problem..

I'm currently reading an excellent recent biography of JM Keynes, one if our greatest economists. From post WW1, where he was involved in the negotiations for reparations and repaying of massive US war loans to Britain and our allies, through the Stock Market crash and the Great Depression he constantly advocated spending to recover a failing economy and watched in despair as his advice was ignored and fascism took over in the most impoverished European countries. With the result that Europe was back in full scale war less than 30 years after 'The War to end all Wars'.

The only country to take his advice was the US where Roosevelt's New Deal put an end to the Depression and revitalised the US economy.

Post war Britain, until the late 1970s followed Keynes' precepts and was on a rising tide of prosperity and greater equality until the peculiar circumstances of the '70s made the populace receptive to Thatcher's opposing economic ideology

.

That sounds really interesting reading, I will look out for that once I have finished Unleashed!

It's a long book, it's full of detail and analysis and it's extremely well written so surprisingly easy to read. I'm rivetted by it

' The Price of Peace' Zachary D Carter. published 2020.

MaizieD

It's a long book, it's full of detail and analysis and it's extremely well written so surprisingly easy to read. I'm rivetted by it

' The Price of Peace' Zachary D Carter. published 2020.

Thank you.

Bevsec economic 'success' = s country being great, do you mean like China and the USA

In fact in the UK all our manufacturing has been exported to China and other Asian countries, all our remaining industry is owned by Sovereign Wealth Funds, or Private Equity, usually USA based, whose only aim is to take as much out of the companies as possible . The water industry is the most egregious example, especially Thames Water.

I measure the greatness of a country by its social equality, quality of education, medical care and lack of extreme poverty.

BevSec

M0nica

BevSec

The UK, its a great country!

Would you care to be specific. Every country is a great country, even Andorra or Lichtenstein, but what does that tell you? zilch.

I am afraid I cannot give economic statistics, just think we are lucky really in our quality of life here. It just seems a shame that some think we are only worth while if we belong to the EU.

I may be wrong, but I haven't seen a single poster who has said we should now rejoin the EU. (Tho many regret we did leave)

But lots of discussion about improving trade ties and cutting out customs red tape and tariffs to improve UK business interests in Europe.

“I may be wrong, but I haven't seen a single poster who has said we should now rejoin the EU. (Tho many regret we did leave)”

Even if we wanted to they would not have us as members, everything depends on accepting their rules and standards, we gave up the ability to influence their policy when we left.

Now many aspects could be integrated even a Customs Union but we would have to accept freedom of movement and the EU supervising our institutions

Years ago we joined a Common Market, the EU has become a Political Union which makes rejoining difficult for the UK.

M0nica

Bevsec economic 'success' = s country being great, do you mean like China and the USA

In fact in the UK all our manufacturing has been exported to China and other Asian countries, all our remaining industry is owned by Sovereign Wealth Funds, or Private Equity, usually USA based, whose only aim is to take as much out of the companies as possible . The water industry is the most egregious example, especially Thames Water.

I measure the greatness of a country by its social equality, quality of education, medical care and lack of extreme poverty.

All the qualities you mention in your last paragraph we have in the UK. If you have a medical emergency the quality of care is excellent, along with education, we also do not have what I would call extreme poverty either. Not sure if any country can have social equality, how is that achievable?

Even if we wanted to they would not have us as members, everything depends on accepting their rules and standards, we gave up the ability to influence their policy when we left.

We still have to accept 'their rules and their standards' because they are still a major export destination. So we now don't have any say in framing them. And they are more complex now we are trading with them as a 'third country'.

That's why we still use the CE mark, for example.

we also do not have what I would call extreme poverty

I'm not sure how you're defining 'extreme poverty' but with more than 14 million people living 'below the poverty line' in the UK I don't feel that we've anything to be proud of in that direction.

I checked out the Labour Manifesto,

"With Labour, Britain will stay outside of the EU. But to seize the opportunities ahead, we must make Brexit work. We will reset the relationship and seek to deepen ties with our European friends, neighbours and allies.

That does not mean reopening the divisions of the past. There will be no return to the single market, the customs union, or freedom of movement.

Instead, Labour will work to improve the UK’s trade and investment relationship with the EU, by tearing down unnecessary barriers to trade.

We will seek to negotiate a veterinary agreement to prevent unnecessary border checks and help tackle the cost of food; will help our touring artists; and secure a mutual recognition agreement for professional qualifications to help open up markets for UK service exporters.

Labour will seek an ambitious new UK-EU security pact to strengthen co-operation on the threats we face. We will rebuild relationships with key European allies, including France and Germany, through increased defence and security co-operation.

Labour are living in cloud cuckoo land WRT the EU, I'm afraid.

I don't know what they think they're playing at with well over half the country longing to get back in the EU. I appreciate that that is too big an ask of the EU at the moment, but to to rule out joining the Single Market and the Customs Union is utterly ridiculous.

We have a stagnant economy; we can't afford to be isolationist.

Personally I'm tempted to say I'd like to join the single market /customs union because it seems logical

but I dont understand the full dynamics and consequences of doing so Maizie as regards trade with other nations, nor, as you say yourself, what different members of the EU feel about these moves.

Lots of small businesses have found it more difficult to trade with the EU since Brexit, surely the aims in the manifesto are helpful?

MaizieD

Labour are living in cloud cuckoo land WRT the EU, I'm afraid.

I don't know what they think they're playing at with well over half the country longing to get back in the EU. I appreciate that that is too big an ask of the EU at the moment, but to to rule out joining the Single Market and the Customs Union is utterly ridiculous.

We have a stagnant economy; we can't afford to be isolationist.

I so agree with you Maizie and the Lib Dems and greens are really keen too..

MaizieD

^Even if we wanted to they would not have us as members, everything depends on accepting their rules and standards, we gave up the ability to influence their policy when we left.^

We still have to accept 'their rules and their standards' because they are still a major export destination. So we now don't have any say in framing them. And they are more complex now we are trading with them as a 'third country'.

That's why we still use the CE mark, for example.

While we still recognize the CE standard we have our own UKCA that has been introduced, it’s the kind of bonkers Brexit nonsense that’s wasting money. There are many other regulations that are simply duplicated for the sake of being different

The aims in the manifesto sound as though they 'could' be helpful, but I don't see the EU treating us any differently from any other third country. And they don't give 'special' concessions to third countries.

Joining the Single Market and the CU would remove barriers to trade (because that is the whole point of the SM) but it also means accepting free movement. Why that should be a difficulty is beyond me, seeing that stopping it hasn't made an iota of difference to our net immigration figures.

I think the UKCA has been quietly abandoned, David.