could 5% cuts mean end of privatisation?

I really don't think refuse collectors should be getting some kind of danger money because one person was killed by a faulty vehicle. It sounds like some kind of Health and Safety failure.

The dinosaurs are not all dead.....
Just for interest, my GD is a first year medical student, 70% female intake.

Wyllow3

spabbygirl

The gov't have asked local authorities etc to make 5% cuts, could this be the start of bringing services back in house?
It seems to me that that is the only way to bring about cuts with no change to services. I'm assuming that the rubbish etc services that are privatised involve a payment for shareholders. I work in fostering and the profits the private companies get from providing foster care are phenomenal, although I actually think it works in fostering, if you reduced the excessive payments.

I could not recall council's being asked to make cuts of 5% by the government anywhere so have just been checking and can find no record of it. all that comes up are the problems councils are having to work within budget and issues about if and how much more might be asked in council tax

*without wishing to sound critical of the O/P, as she/he might indeed well be right, I don't think this has been asked of councils - can we have a reference to this? Its just that I think it would have been headline news in all the papers but there is no announcement*

I think they've told government departments to save 5%, not sure if it is all departments as I can't see how health or education could do it.

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

growstuff you posted Why should work that requires brawn be paid better than that which requires brain

A women who he is doing the exact same job as a man (and vice versa) should receive equal pay.

How can anyone say that a refuse collector is equal to an office clerk, a cleaner equal to an office manager, a builder equal to an accountant…

Why shouldn't they be equal? I'm not talking about office clerks and managers being equal. Of course, they're not because one has a great deal more responsibility and is responsible for more decision-making. From memory, the Birmingham case was about refuse collectors being paid more than cleaners - the refuse collectors were mainly male and the cleaners were female. How could those jobs not be equal and how could it be justified that refuse collectors were paid more than cleaners.

These days, traditional 'male' jobs which required strength are often automated, so the strength isn't needed. I can't remember the last time I saw a refuse collector pick up a bin - they wheel them to a ramp and then the picking up and tipping in the lorry is automated. Most people (male or female) could do that. The majority of jobs could be done by people of either gender, but traditional male jobs still tend to be better paid.

I'm all for equal pay but with the example you give I knew a man who was killed when the tipping function of the lorry failed and he was crushed as it came down on him. I don't know if any cleaners have been killed while working so I don't know if that is equivalent.

I always worry when I see our binmen standing under those things loading the bins on.

We do have a woman who works at our tip but she doesn't load the lorries but I assume she gets paid the same as the men.

David49

Wages are supply and demand women doing traditionally male work has brought the wages down in any job
Only work with special skills or difficult conditions get premium wages

Phew! that is a very wide statement. There is certainly an elelment of supply and demand in wages, but other things get factored in, like how pleasant the job is to do refuse collection staff - , how socially acceptable it is to admit to your job - abattoir workers for example.

Can you give several examples of where women entering a profession has led to reduced wages - as distinct to women in 'women's professions' who were never paid well in the first place.

For most of my working life I worked in big companies where jobs were graded by work content and while, certainly in my early years, I had more men than women colleagues, later on that evened out. I only once met direct sex discrimination in wages - and I suspect that had more to do with the specific manager than the company, but I did not stay long enough to find out. I just moved on.

Wages are supply and demand women doing traditionally male work has brought the wages down in any job
Only work with special skills or difficult conditions get premium wages

David49

You wrote
Truckdrivers get paid more because women don‘t want to do that work.

Are you in other words saying that if more women were truckdrivers, they as a whole would get paid less or just the women?

spabbygirl

The gov't have asked local authorities etc to make 5% cuts, could this be the start of bringing services back in house?
It seems to me that that is the only way to bring about cuts with no change to services. I'm assuming that the rubbish etc services that are privatised involve a payment for shareholders. I work in fostering and the profits the private companies get from providing foster care are phenomenal, although I actually think it works in fostering, if you reduced the excessive payments.

I could not recall council's being asked to make cuts of 5% by the government anywhere so have just been checking and can find no record of it. all that comes up are the problems councils are having to work within budget and issues about if and how much more might be asked in council tax

without wishing to sound critical of the O/P, as she/he might indeed well be right, I don't think this has been asked of councils - can we have a reference to this? Its just that I think it would have been headline news in all the papers but there is no announcement

Almost any job can be argued as of equal value, some jobs need special extended training but most can be done by anyone with just a few weeks training, a care worker or a truck driver would take the same time. Truck drivers get paid more because most women don’t want to do that work, yet it could be argued that a care worker is more valuable to society. If you look at all the professions 25 yrs ago they were male dominated, now it’s unusual to see a male bank manager or accountant or teacher women have taken over,

Being a misandrist is very fashionable the truth is that most jobs are open to women but either they don’t want to or can’t do that work.

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD

You are missing my point, GG13.

Tell me how the monetary value of each job is determined. How is the wage paid for it determined?

I know how wages are determined in my SME, and have been for over 40 years.

I have no idea how other companies or public sector organisations evaluate their pay scales. I hazard a guess that it is to do with age, experience, responsibility along with conditions under which the job is to be carried out, i.e. indoors, outdoors, physicality, education attainment, training involved.

It is a fact that not all jobs are equal, if they were we would all be on the salary of MPs, along with their generous expense allowances.

If I am missing your point it is because you have been unclear about what your point is.

I don't think Maizie has been at all unclear. The fact is that there are certain jobs which are still seen as 'male' jobs and they tend to be better paid.

In the Birmingham case, refuse collectors were being paid more than cleaners. How can that be justified?

Nobody, including Maizie, is suggesting that all workers should be paid the same as the CEO.

It is a fact that not all jobs are equal, if they were we would all be on the salary of MPs, along with their generous expense allowances.

I think I'd rather that we were on the same salary as large company CEOs, six figure salaries and huge bonuses for keeping the shareholders happy no matter how badly the company has performed 😁

If I am missing your point it is because you have been unclear about what your point is.

My point was about job equivalence. It was made in response to this from your post at 07.50

How can anyone say that a refuse collector is equal to an office clerk, a cleaner equal to an office manager, a builder equal to an accountant…

I thought your comparison examples were a bit extreme.

OTOH There is a big ?mark over the relative value of these jobs.

It has been pointed out that during covid a great many previously very low profile, lowly paid jobs turned out to be vital to the servicing of the nation's needs, so workers carried on doing them, at some personal risk to themselves from getting the then lethal disease. While the very highly paid sat back in enforced idleness with no apparent impairment to the state functioning.

So why is one job more highly paid than another?

(Apart from it being a matter of skills and experience)

“You're just supporting gendered jobs, David.”

No I'm not, there are many jobs traditionally male that are done by women. Most women don’t want to do the outdoor, dirty, heavy jobs that men do, most prefer indoor, clean, light work.
Nevertheless if a woman wants to do the heavy outdoor work she should be paid the same as a man.

MaizieD

You are missing my point, GG13.

Tell me how the monetary value of each job is determined. How is the wage paid for it determined?

I know how wages are determined in my SME, and have been for over 40 years.

I have no idea how other companies or public sector organisations evaluate their pay scales. I hazard a guess that it is to do with age, experience, responsibility along with conditions under which the job is to be carried out, i.e. indoors, outdoors, physicality, education attainment, training involved.

It is a fact that not all jobs are equal, if they were we would all be on the salary of MPs, along with their generous expense allowances.

If I am missing your point it is because you have been unclear about what your point is.

Our council outsourced running of allotments and public spaces to a so called Not For Profit company called Urban Green. They have outpriced the 100 year old fishing club and the park maintenance has certainly not improved. My local park just over the road has lost its rubbish bins, the cafe has closed and it seems little maintenance has been done.

I looked up the owners who are all on LinkedIn! They are all CEOs/Finance managers etc.

They have spent their whole budget, leaving a huge short fall and the council have had to take back control!

So much for private enterprise running a public service. I’d bet they paid themselves handsomely in the process.
Our bin service is fine though so it’s not all bad.

Looking back over the last 40 years, privatisation has not improved essential public services. They should be in public hands or controlled and regulated in out interest. This is currently not the case.

You are missing my point, GG13.

Tell me how the monetary value of each job is determined. How is the wage paid for it determined?

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD there is no misogyny in our workplace.

We are now seeing more female tradespeople than ever before.

It is a fact that some jobs require more brawn (as growstuff posted) there are men and women with physical capabilities for these jobs, there are of course men and women who haven’t got the brawn for a physical job.

Equally there are men and women capable of doing a job which requires a high degree of mental dexterity, but there are men and women who are not equipped for these.

Each profession should in the 21st century have a pay scale which is not dependent on gender.

It would be illegal to pay people doing exactly the same job a different amount according to gender. However, it is still a fact that some jobs are still considered stereotypically male or female. When the jobs aren't identical, the 'male' jobs tend to be better paid.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff you posted Why should work that requires brawn be paid better than that which requires brain

A women who he is doing the exact same job as a man (and vice versa) should receive equal pay.

How can anyone say that a refuse collector is equal to an office clerk, a cleaner equal to an office manager, a builder equal to an accountant…

Why shouldn't they be equal? I'm not talking about office clerks and managers being equal. Of course, they're not because one has a great deal more responsibility and is responsible for more decision-making. From memory, the Birmingham case was about refuse collectors being paid more than cleaners - the refuse collectors were mainly male and the cleaners were female. How could those jobs not be equal and how could it be justified that refuse collectors were paid more than cleaners.

These days, traditional 'male' jobs which required strength are often automated, so the strength isn't needed. I can't remember the last time I saw a refuse collector pick up a bin - they wheel them to a ramp and then the picking up and tipping in the lorry is automated. Most people (male or female) could do that. The majority of jobs could be done by people of either gender, but traditional male jobs still tend to be better paid.

MaizieD there is no misogyny in our workplace.

We are now seeing more female tradespeople than ever before.

It is a fact that some jobs require more brawn (as growstuff posted) there are men and women with physical capabilities for these jobs, there are of course men and women who haven’t got the brawn for a physical job.

Equally there are men and women capable of doing a job which requires a high degree of mental dexterity, but there are men and women who are not equipped for these.

Each profession should in the 21st century have a pay scale which is not dependent on gender.

David49

No I’m not, it’s the “deemed equal value” that I disagree with
The wage should go with the job if a woman can drive a forklift and do warehouse work she should receive the same wage as a man. That wage should not be compared with a shop floor worker doing a completely different job.

You're just supporting gendered jobs, David.

Why should a warehouse worker be paid more than a shop floor worker? Is it because one is more valuable than the other or is it because one is seen as a man's job and the other as a woman's?

I'm a bit taken aback by some of the comments about 'equal pay'.

It's a complex subject but if there is one thing that is absolutely clear from years and years of analysis and practical experience it is that women are consistently paid less than men. It happens at all levels and in many types of jobs.

There seems to be some misunderstanding of the concept of job equivalence in this discussion and some downright misogyny. And a startling lack of feminine solidarity😆

No I’m not, it’s the “deemed equal value” that I disagree with
The wage should go with the job if a woman can drive a forklift and do warehouse work she should receive the same wage as a man. That wage should not be compared with a shop floor worker doing a completely different job.

David, you cant seriously be suggesting that equal pay is wrong

Councils were forced to outsource and the buildings that used to house care and residential services for young and old have been sold. I’d like to see services back in house. I managed a generic social work team in the 80’s. We had home helps, meals on wheels, famiky support workers and residential care for adolescents who usually refused foster care. We worked more effectively than when liaising with endless outside providers whose prime purpose was making profits.
I’m not claiming perfection but the cost of residential care for ‘difficult’ teenagers, alongside private fostering is huge and quality often poor.

Exactly M0nica