Isabella Jonas-Wheildon

Anniebach that’s confusing me too ???

I totally agree Galaxy religion can and does have a big role to play in abuse of children by priests, vicars, the religious state etc etc but I don’t think it plays a part in individual cases unless of course it’s pointed out that the parents religion did have some influence… neither does the parents ethnicity, again unless that plays a part as in sacrifices
But
None of that applies in this case the mother and lover appear Caucasian and no religion is suggested, they are just baby killers and need a heavy punishment I think 10 years is way way to short a sentence for the mother
They both should have had life like the little baby

Growstuff you started this thread , the murder of a small child and wondered what the religion of the murderer is.

It is still more complex than that, religion is at times a relevant factor to be discussed in abuse cases, the issues within the catholic church for example are around abuse of power, the fact that priests are seen as 'safe people', their access to children, etc. So it isnt about the religion as such but it is fine to discuss the aspects of it which can lead to safeguarding risks. I am wary of any reluctance to discuss specific issues with regard to safeguarding.

It’s nothing at all to do with religion or with race it’s a baby being killed by her own parent and unfortunately baby and child killers come in all races, all colours, all religions
Horrible horrible people and I hope they throw the key away and I hope they have a horrible time in prison
They d be on bread and water and in solitary if I was in charge
Poor little baby they didn’t care a hoot

Dickens

If 'religion' is involved in any of these horrible, horrible, child murders and / or abuse, then I'd say it's not really the religion that is to blame, but the way it's been perverted to suit the agenda of the abuser.

Which is a different thing all together, and can apply to any religion.

I agree with you. I don't believe religion has anything to do with any of the murders. I don't see why the topic should even have been introduced into discussion about Sara Sharif's murder. Isabella's murder is equally horrific, but there is no mention in anything I've read about her mother's or mother's partner's religion.

What all these murders have in common is that children were at the mercy of some very sadistic people (not always male, but often) and that authorities which should have protected the children failed.

Sara Sharif's father and step-mother obviously weren't stupid and realised that they could use a hijab to cover up her injuries, even though they aren't practising Muslims and no other females in the family wear hijabs. The religion itself had no part in the murder, which is what the dog-whistle comments have implied.

Anniebach

Your O/P shows your concern about the religion of the murderer,

No, it does not. How on earth do you work that out?

If 'religion' is involved in any of these horrible, horrible, child murders and / or abuse, then I'd say it's not really the religion that is to blame, but the way it's been perverted to suit the agenda of the abuser.

Which is a different thing all together, and can apply to any religion.

Your O/P shows your concern about the religion of the murderer,

Both cases are equally abhorrent. Maybe it would be more fruitful to discuss what both cases have in common.

Allira

Oreo

It certainly is a complete horror show anniebach unbearable to even think about.
Is this thread really about how horrible this case is tho? I don’t think so, I think it’s about only wanting to discuss the Sharif case and the fact they were a Muslim household….
So I’m out.

Yes, it was started with the intention of goading, I think.

Using a baby's death to goad posters.
Horrible.

You are no mind reader and have no right to judge.

It wasn't about goading (although I'm not surprised people with guilty consciences see it that way) - it was about the unnecessary mention of religion in one case and comparison with another.

Franski they told family they were going away on holiday.
The mother had just moved in with him.
That is possibly why they weren't more involved.

At least that's what I took from the article.
I have read nothing more about this terrible case.

Oreo

It certainly is a complete horror show anniebach unbearable to even think about.
Is this thread really about how horrible this case is tho? I don’t think so, I think it’s about only wanting to discuss the Sharif case and the fact they were a Muslim household….
So I’m out.

Yes, it was started with the intention of goading, I think.

Using a baby's death to goad posters.
Horrible.

It certainly is a complete horror show anniebach unbearable to even think about.
Is this thread really about how horrible this case is tho? I don’t think so, I think it’s about only wanting to discuss the Sharif case and the fact they were a Muslim household….
So I’m out.

Anniebach

A 2 year old girl, a baby, horrific

Dreadful.
The mother (if that term can be used) was seen drinking wine and laughing when her baby was dead in pushchair.

Sterilisation is needed in cases like that, for both of them.

A 2 year old girl, a baby, horrific

Galaxy

I think it might be more complex than that to be honest. And lots of people arent brave. In fact I would say bravery is a relatively rare quality.
They failed her of course.
Being accused of bigotry of whatever type is I would say fairly career destroying, and even if you come out of the accusation unscathed, the process is the punishment. Many many people would try to avoid that. I personally think we dont have evidence at the moment that this was a factor in this case but it's worth talking about generally.

How is it bigotry to see religion as irrelevant when investigating child abuse? What is bigotry is to use the hijab as an excuse not to do anything or even worse to think that abuse is somehow part of Muslim culture and leave them to get on with it without interfering.

If there were suspicions of abuse, the hijab shouldn't have made any difference. Even strict adherents of Islam are allowed to remove hijabs in front of female medics, especially if the parent was present. If the parent refused, there would have been every reason to take the child into care. The Sharif family weren't strict Muslims, so warning bells should have rung.

M0nica

Oreo

growstuffI find your posts both tasteless and goady in using this terrible case to highlight some sort of grievance.

I do not see any problem with growtuff's posts. She merely points out that in discussing these two cases the religion if any, or ethnicity of the perpretrators is entirely irrelevant to the case, and I entirely agree with her.

I don’t think that ‘merely’ comes into it. This is not the Sarah sharif case.
But that’s fine if you agree with it but I don’t and moreover I believe this awful case is just being used to beat posters with a racist stick where no racism exists.

Grow stuff you are completely right Jeanathomes comment was crass and unnecessarily

I think it might be more complex than that to be honest. And lots of people arent brave. In fact I would say bravery is a relatively rare quality.
They failed her of course.
Being accused of bigotry of whatever type is I would say fairly career destroying, and even if you come out of the accusation unscathed, the process is the punishment. Many many people would try to avoid that. I personally think we dont have evidence at the moment that this was a factor in this case but it's worth talking about generally.

The hijab shouldn’t have made any difference but perhaps it did

Galaxy

I tend to ignore the shouts of bigot these days, people did the same with regard to puberty blockers. The bigots were right.
I actually think it is a form of racism not to look at whether any issues relating to race or religion played a part in some cases. It puts those children at greater risk.
I have raised the issue that homes with a step parent in are statistically more likely to be risky for children. I am sure that will upset many people. Still needs talking about.

It's racism because it's an issue. Ethnic minorities tend not to be listened to.

People who cry about being accused of racism if they don't do their jobs are cowards.

M0nica

Oreo

growstuffI find your posts both tasteless and goady in using this terrible case to highlight some sort of grievance.

I do not see any problem with growtuff's posts. She merely points out that in discussing these two cases the religion if any, or ethnicity of the perpretrators is entirely irrelevant to the case, and I entirely agree with her.

Thank you MOnica.

Freya5

growstuff

Franski I was comparing with the reaction to Sara Sharif's murder. Of course, religion wasn't to blame in either case. I have no idea whether Isabella's father is religious, but we know that Sara's father doesn't have a faith. Nevertheless, religion was brought into the discussion about Sara's murder - I wonder why.

Oh for goodness sakes, the brute of a father / stepmother made her wear a religious garment to cover up the damage he caused to her.
Suited them didn't it .

Sara Sharif's father isn't a practising Muslim. He used it as a convenient way of covering up, just as a parent in another case used chocolate. The people involved in Sara's life knew she was at risk. The hijab shouldn't have made any difference. People who use that as an excuse for the people who should have done their jobs are being racist. Religion should not be playing any part in the discussion, apart from questioning why a child with one Pakistani parent was overlooked by authorities. Quite frankly, the people who cry that they'll be accused of racism if they investigate cases involving ethnic minorities are pathetic wimps.

I don’t agree

Oreo

*growstuff*I find your posts both tasteless and goady in using this terrible case to highlight some sort of grievance.

I do not see any problem with growtuff's posts. She merely points out that in discussing these two cases the religion if any, or ethnicity of the perpretrators is entirely irrelevant to the case, and I entirely agree with her.