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Bring it on Elon!

(536 Posts)
FriedGreenTomatoes2 Tue 17-Dec-24 19:10:59

The world’s most successful business man wants to support Reform. The Tories and Labour will be bricking it.

PoliticsNerd Sun 22-Dec-24 07:22:53

I have seen Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) described as "Trussanomics for the left". Both theories indeed aim to provide frameworks for economic management that diverge from the traditional.

While "Trussanomics" particularly focused on tax cuts and deregulation, MMT centers around the premise that a government that issues its own currency can never "run out" of money in the same way a household or business can.

MMT supporters argue that such governments can and should use their fiscal powers to achieve full employment and address social issues, as long as inflation is kept in check. Critics, however, often view MMT as overly simplistic or as a "magic source" that promises solutions without adequately addressing the complexities and potential risks, such as inflation or public debt. To me, both disregard the fact thst a currency is only as strong as the rest of the world believes it to be.

Each theory suggests that fundamental economic shifts can provide the solutions to societal issues and we all wish for that. But a core criticism of all extremist economic theories is that they can oversimplify the relationship between policy and real-world outcomes. While there may be valid points in each theory, their application can lead to unintended consequences.

Such economic theories often contain elements of truth that more centered political proponents can use and they do fuel interest in debate about the role of government, the economy, and societal welfare - which is always a good thing.

Dropped0ut Sun 22-Dec-24 04:10:04

Big Billionaire Businessman Musk! Wooo look at him go! Soon our country will be as strong and good as his businesses!

Is what I imagine goes through their head (and as evident by the original post for this thread, I'm not far off).

What they fail to realize is that Musk's businesses will become more successful, but his business doesn't include them. If anything, it relies on exploiting them.

Like the late George Carling would quip, "It's a big club, and you ain’t in it!"

Here's the full quote. Worth a read as even decades later, it's even more true today, sadly.

"But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education sucks, and it’s the same reason that it will never, ever, ever be fixed. It’s never gonna get any better. Don’t look for it. Be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want: They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests. Thats right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table to figure out how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you, sooner or later, 'cause they own this fucking place. It's a big club, and you ain’t in it. You and I are not in the big club. And by the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head in their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table is tilted folks. The game is rigged, and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people -- white collar, blue collar, it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on -- good honest hard-working people continue -- these are people of modest means -- continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about them. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don't care about you at all -- at all -- at all. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. That's what the owners count on; the fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that's being jammed up their assholes everyday. Because the owners of this country know the truth: it's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.

Dropped0ut Sun 22-Dec-24 03:21:38

MaizieD

DroppedOut

Watch a elon/trump rally, than re-read your compelling, yet lengthy posts.

I think the concepts you bring up are too abstract for elon supporters to ever get behind.

I don't know how to phrase it any nicer. This is just the brass tacks.

If you're referring to my lengthy post at 13.26 I don't see that there's anything difficult to understand in it.

It's a very simple concept. The state creates money and issues it by spending into the national economy. The wealthy hoover up as much of that money as they possibly can by selling goods and services to the general public (or to the state itself) at a vast profit and by avoiding the taxation that would return the state issued money to the state.

How is that difficult to understand?

I agree, it ^ shouldn't^ be difficult to understand. But when is the last time you watched an elon/trump rally?

Their supporters' attention span can only handle overt symbolism, bombastic displays, and simple rhetoric ( e.g. Bad men across the border are coming. They're bringing crime and eating dogs). Not lengthy posts that quote historic philosophers.

MayBee70 Sun 22-Dec-24 00:44:52

I actually feel ashamed to be a member of a forum that includes members that eulogise people like Musk and Trump and limited companies like Reform in their various incarnations…

Ohhowwelaughed Sun 22-Dec-24 00:31:28

FlitterMouse

Richard Murphy?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnYhGD7xNig

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxoF7GuFP5E

Think even Gary Stephenson discredited him

I don't believe that the money supply works that way but I am open minded as to why.

Can we show any country that works this way.

FlitterMouse Sun 22-Dec-24 00:26:50

Richard Murphy?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnYhGD7xNig

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxoF7GuFP5E

Ohhowwelaughed Sun 22-Dec-24 00:22:35

Sorry and I always assumed governments borrowed by issuing bond as a way to get money back in circulation without printing

I have loads of investments tied up in foreign companies so I could buy gilts instead that would enable the government to use that money.

Ohhowwelaughed Sun 22-Dec-24 00:18:28

Thanks but just trying to get my head around it as the theory has been debunked many times.
I can understand that if it was us in isolation then we can issue currency to our hearts content but not when we need to trade with other countries as printing alters the value of our pound.

We run an overall trade deficit so more money leaves that goods we sell so that I assumed is why our currency is slowly sinking.

Various Russian people say that soldiers aren't being paid but if the country could issue as many roubles as it wanted it could offer silly money to entice soldiers. Putin I assume will be paying for arms from the gas/oil it still sells to China and India.

MaizieD Sun 22-Dec-24 00:04:32

Oh, sorry, posted by accident.
To continue.
... from other countries.

Governments which can create their own money don't have to borrow from anyone. But what is called 'borrowing', the sale of government bonds, is a savings and investment facility which people and institutions take advantage if because they know their money is absolutely safe. The government will not default on its 'debt'. The bondholders get interest on their 'investment, which provides a regular income for some, and, for the government it damps down the risk of inflation caused by too much money in the economy. (There are other causes of inflation which are beyond the government's control, of course)
It isn't true that the government needs to tax in order to pay for things... There is a video explaining this which I'll try to find the link for tomorrow.

MaizieD Sat 21-Dec-24 23:51:05

Ohhowwelaughed

MaizeD

Genuine question, in your description above about money introduced by government what happens to money sent to China for goods as that money is removed from the money supply

Also if money issuers can generate as much as they need how come Russia is struggling to pay the wages of soldiers etc Would they not make the money?

I read an article that said the reason the USA needs to cut costs is the only reason they can borrow the 12 trillion they owe is because the dollar is the world reserve currency but they are worried that China etc are trying to make the Yuan the reserve currency and this would make the dollar collapse.

The amount of money a government can create is limited by the amount of resources that are available for it to purchase. This doesn't alter the fact that the government is the only body which is legally able to create your currency ( and tge banks which it licences to create money). If anyone else does it they are counterfeiting, which is, of course, illegal 😆

I don't know about Putin struggling to pay his soldiers, but he doesn't seem to have any problem buying arms. And I doubt that the North Koreans are fighting for him in Ukraine without any payment.

You are correct, money which goes to China to pay for imports to the US are leaving the country, but don't forget that US exports are bringing money in from other

imaround Sat 21-Dec-24 23:30:50

If you are interested to read more about why Musk stopped our democratic process to pass a spending bill, this article is pretty good overview. Musk is a dangerous man.

prospect.org/politics/2024-12-20-government-shutting-down-elon-musk-factories-china/

imaround Sat 21-Dec-24 23:20:42

Musk wants to build a second plant in China. He also wants to work with the Chinese government on his self-driving technology. He can't do that if the feds put laws in place to restrict business in China.

In the first finance bill that Musk shut down, there was a restriction on business in China. In the second bill that was created without Democrat input, that provision was removed. I do not know if it was returned to the final bill that passed. I haven't had time today to research it.

Yes, Covid was the reason he added so much debt. But not the only reason. I am wondering the reasoning behind him wanting to eliminate the debt ceiling, while at the same time wanting to cut over $2 trillion. Bill #2 failed because 38 Republicans joined the Democrats in saying no because they refuse to raise the debt ceiling.

It is pretty at odds, in my opinion, to say we spend to much and then ask to have unlimited spending money.

Ohhowwelaughed Sat 21-Dec-24 23:02:56

imaround

I think you have it Allira! 🤣

Ohhowwelaughed: I am not going to pretend to know anything high level about the money issue, but that sounds similar to what I have heard.

Trump is trying to remove our debt ceiling, which is not at all fiscally conservative if you ask me. It is something the democrats have been trying to for years.

25% of our national debt was created during Trumps first term. I hesitate to give him an open check, especially when we will have less checks and balances starting in January.

Yes but I feel sometimes it's fine having more checks and balances but not much good if the country is bankrupt, I assume things would be worse then

Trump like the Conservatives will have added debt due to COVID.

You said earlier that Musks reason may be to open a market in China but Tesla already has a gigafactory in China so I don't think it's that.

Shinamae Sat 21-Dec-24 23:01:56

Chocolatelovinggran

So, love0c you are happy comparing our elected parliament with a never - elected man who suggested that the right party for a foreign country, in which he has no stake, is a Neo - Nazi organisation?
I understand that you dislike the ruling party, but is this a position you can defend?
Has Mr Starmer spoke of " gassing and shooting " a section of the electorate?

Good God, what an absolutely terrible thing to say, shame on you..

Shinamae Sat 21-Dec-24 22:59:25

Maremia

Shinamae, thank you for admiting what many believe to be true, that Reform does NOT have a policy for the NHS.

I also said they had plenty of time to work on their policies..

imaround Sat 21-Dec-24 22:55:00

I think you have it Allira! 🤣

Ohhowwelaughed: I am not going to pretend to know anything high level about the money issue, but that sounds similar to what I have heard.

Trump is trying to remove our debt ceiling, which is not at all fiscally conservative if you ask me. It is something the democrats have been trying to for years.

25% of our national debt was created during Trumps first term. I hesitate to give him an open check, especially when we will have less checks and balances starting in January.

Ohhowwelaughed Sat 21-Dec-24 22:41:10

MaizeD

Genuine question, in your description above about money introduced by government what happens to money sent to China for goods as that money is removed from the money supply

Also if money issuers can generate as much as they need how come Russia is struggling to pay the wages of soldiers etc Would they not make the money?

I read an article that said the reason the USA needs to cut costs is the only reason they can borrow the 12 trillion they owe is because the dollar is the world reserve currency but they are worried that China etc are trying to make the Yuan the reserve currency and this would make the dollar collapse.

Allira Sat 21-Dec-24 22:35:24

imaround

I am not the same person as DroppedOut. I have been on GN for many years, mostly in estrangement as I was estranged from my mother. I stopped posting there a long while ago for many reasons. I don't post on GN as often as I used to and took a break for a while, but this topic is of interest to me because, well I am living it. And if I can open a single person's eyes on Musk, it is worth it.

The only other user name I have had is freedomfromthepast, which I lost the log on information to so I created this one.

So you dropped out now you've dropped in again so you're around again, imaround

I think I've got it, by Jove! 😀

FriedGreenTomatoes2 Sat 21-Dec-24 22:30:53

I feel as though I’m in an alternative universe on here - dropped in - dropped out - and turned around or is it I’m around. Dizzy or what. It’s like a political Hokey Cokey.

imaround Sat 21-Dec-24 22:28:30

I am not the same person as DroppedOut. I have been on GN for many years, mostly in estrangement as I was estranged from my mother. I stopped posting there a long while ago for many reasons. I don't post on GN as often as I used to and took a break for a while, but this topic is of interest to me because, well I am living it. And if I can open a single person's eyes on Musk, it is worth it.

The only other user name I have had is freedomfromthepast, which I lost the log on information to so I created this one.

Allira Sat 21-Dec-24 22:18:10

PoliticsNerd

Allira

imaround

My posts haven't been deleted that I can see? I haven't posted on the estrangement threads in over a year at least?

My posts here have stayed on topic and have been respectful, so I have no idea why they would be deleted.

Are you talking about imaround's deleted posts on here DroppedOut? Your post seems to bear no relation to what I read and was commenting on.

I have looked back, imaround and in fact it is DroppedOut who has had a couple of posts deleted.

I do apologise, I was responding to what another poster said.

Is there some funny business going on?
Strange.

As was I. That'll teach us grin

RTFT as they say (whoever they are)
I'd just say RTWT!

MaizieD Sat 21-Dec-24 22:03:01

DroppedOut

Watch a elon/trump rally, than re-read your compelling, yet lengthy posts.

I think the concepts you bring up are too abstract for elon supporters to ever get behind.

I don't know how to phrase it any nicer. This is just the brass tacks.

If you're referring to my lengthy post at 13.26 I don't see that there's anything difficult to understand in it.

It's a very simple concept. The state creates money and issues it by spending into the national economy. The wealthy hoover up as much of that money as they possibly can by selling goods and services to the general public (or to the state itself) at a vast profit and by avoiding the taxation that would return the state issued money to the state.

How is that difficult to understand?

MaizieD Sat 21-Dec-24 21:54:32

DroppedOut

Allira

your ?? you ??
Who are you referring to when you say your and you exactly?

Correctly - in whose opinion?

I guess I had "MaizieD" in mind when writing that as I've only read the most recent posts on this thread, but it's meant to apply to anyone who wrote (lengthy) posts about topics more abstract than the usual fear-mongering that right-wing talking heads like to constantly espouse.

I'm also mystified by this post...

MaizieD Sat 21-Dec-24 21:53:17

PoliticsNerd

Are you talking about imaround's deleted posts on here DroppedOut? Your post seems to bear no relation to what I read and was commenting on.

Wrong thread perhaps?

It was DroppingIn's posts that were deleted on this thread. I asked about them, earlier.

imaround hasn't been deleted at all, as far as I can see.

Is DroppedOut the same poster?

I'm quite mystified as to what is going on here and who is who hmm

PoliticsNerd Sat 21-Dec-24 21:34:15

Allira

imaround

My posts haven't been deleted that I can see? I haven't posted on the estrangement threads in over a year at least?

My posts here have stayed on topic and have been respectful, so I have no idea why they would be deleted.

Are you talking about imaround's deleted posts on here DroppedOut? Your post seems to bear no relation to what I read and was commenting on.

I have looked back, imaround and in fact it is DroppedOut who has had a couple of posts deleted.

I do apologise, I was responding to what another poster said.

Is there some funny business going on?
Strange.

As was I. That'll teach us grin