Terrorist attack in Germany.

Thank you Wyllow3, its important to keep asking questions how this sort of thing can be prevented.

I thought I'd post a report on the Dec 30th German Government inquiries into the Magdeburg attack. They are still sifting through thousands of social media posts but some new information has come out.

www.cbsnews.com/news/germany-christmas-market-attack-suspect-mental-illness/

The German President has just announced that he has dissolved parliament. He says 23rd February is the date for a general election. Undoubtedly the Magdeburg attack will have some bearing on the upcoming campaigns.

Certainly thousands of potential terrorists are being monitored by our own secret services, they have all been involved in suspicious activity. The only way we are going to be 100% sure is to jail or deport them, until then we have to accept that some of these “mentally ill” individuals are going to succeed in staging attacks.

The German intelligence services might need to revisit their policies for follow up actions. It seems that there was some prior warning from SA about the tweets from the perpetrator but it was not taken seriously.
Perhaps being a psychiatrist gave a false impression? OTOH for all we know, countless terrorists have been stopped before causing harm and it’s impossible to get this type of response right every time.

Yes it would be useful to have a conversation about culture but almost impossible in our society at the present time.

How is the ‘prevailing culture in SA’ related to what happened to this individual

Childhood and early experiences do influence our behaviour as adults. The culture in SA is very different than the culture in western countries such as Germany. As this man grew up in SA and lived there well into adulthood, it is fair to assume that he has been influenced by the culture in which he grew up and lived, just as much as we are influenced by the culture in which we grew up and live as adults. For example, we are used to free speech and like to avail ourselves of that facility frequently, not least on GN. By no means do the citizens of every country in the world enjoy that right. Also capital punishment is (quite rightly in my opinion) illegal in the UK, but this is not true of many countries in the world. Cultures are different. What is acceptable in one country is not acceptable in another. This is why prevailing culture in any country has an effect on the people living there and the children growing up there.

If the refugee support services, or a GP or mh worker recognised the individual poses a risk to others that should trigger intervention, but as Oreo points out - mh services hugely over stretched. I’d be so pleased to see a big investment into mh and other preventive services. Maybe we could ask Elon Musk to invest, no strings

Oreo

With resources for MH problems already overstretched for years and years there can’t possibly be any special sort of attention given to migrants they have to take their chances with the rest of us if they need help.

Even if that means more cars driven into crowds and people knived in supermarkets?

The Refugee Council is the main organisation (charity).
Freedom from Torture (charity) also offers specific help.
Barnardo's have a child/family MH helpline.

Oreo, I don’t see anyone suggesting preferential services for refugees. My experience is many such communities set up their own usually informal and voluntary support services. They often get support from volunteers from existing communities, maybe people dismissed as ‘bleeding hearts’

With resources for MH problems already overstretched for years and years there can’t possibly be any special sort of attention given to migrants they have to take their chances with the rest of us if they need help.

We dont know what his childhood was like, what drove him. He came to Germany, he had a good job, he had some protection of his atheist views from SA, and could have led a productive life -

but its like he had to be "known" in some way, be seen as a sort of hero "Rescuing" in the beginning,

something in him wanted fame - and approval for a range of controversial social media views....he ended up being rejected by others in the same position as him - he was incapable of seeing who he was alienating -

he then bizarrely joined the AfD, a group which hates immigrants and started saying the authorities wanted to kill him- very paranoid - I don't know which reality his head was in, but I suspect it wasn't reasonable or healthy for a long, long time - and then some trigger made him completely lose it.

Different groups had voiced concerns, but they were neither not put together or viewed as dangerous to the public -

We don't know if he was offered help and turned it away or not particularly when he left work - more may come out on December 30th after different security/police groups have met and discussed.

On a wider scale, doesn't everyone moving to foreign shores have to make adjustments and compromises? It comes with the territory. Our family moved to France, and everyone of us had to adapt to a very different culture and way of life whilst behaving correctly and keeping our heads down. You try to assimilate, you don't go committing crimes.
I agree that more should be done to recognise and help newcomers with mental health issues earlier on. Apparently, however, the Magdeburg man showed no such abnormal tendancies in his country of origin, and just got on with his daily life. Being a fish out of water in Germany and free to let rip, perhaps triggered to some latent problem in his psyche, I don't know. It did take him 18 years to reach this point, during which time I feel opportunities must have been missed to support him or to take action against him.

Skydancer

Freya I worry like you do.
Is there any joy in the world any more.

I appreciate your point, but surely the claim that Freya made
How do you know that they've not been indoctrinated already. Boat loads of fighting age men, being allowed into this country with out checks and balances being done

Is just making us angry, negative and afraid to people who arrive? Tarring them all with the same brush?

I thought the southport attacker was born in the UK

Freya I worry like you do.
Is there any joy in the world any more.

Iam64

Freya, genuine question. How does MOnica’s post have you getting cross about ‘bleeding hearts’. What are these bleeding hearts.

Iam64 Thank you. I have reread my post searching for the bleeding heart.

I ssuggested that I thought a significant fact in both the Southport and Magdeburg events were mental health problems, possibly triggered by the cultural adjustment necessary for many asylum seekers, which both are.

Both these men have committed crimes for which they must be held responsible and for which they must stand trial and be sentenced. I have never argued against that.

I then suggested pro-active measures that could help reduce the frequency of crimes like theirs. How on earth can that be a sign of a bleeding heart?

Please explain Freya

Freya (or a general question) when you write, How do you know that they've not been indoctrinated already. Boat loads of fighting age men, being allowed into this country with out checks and balances being done

Indoctrinated into what? Do you believe people are arriving to form some kind of hostile force? Do you believe, as you seem to suggest, "they" are all the same?

For those escaping war and sometimes torture, surely that's the last thing wanted. If people have arrived for "Economic" reasons and are refused asylum then the intention is they can't stay, but again, why should this group wish to cause trouble?

Freya, genuine question. How does MOnica’s post have you getting cross about ‘bleeding hearts’. What are these bleeding hearts.

M0nica

The man arrested for the Magdeburg killings had Tommy Robinson as a follower on one of his social media accounts.

A number of people have mentioned his method of mounting this attack as terrorist related, as also the Southport attack., but I think that it is not as simple as that. As we see in so many aspectsof life, one person does something and it is novel and amusing, so everyone follows suit. This can apply to criminal attacks.

Look at school shootings in the USA. Between 1764 and 1998 there were 13 school shootings but since 1999 and the Columbine School shootings which commanded worldwide publicity there have been 21. Disaffected USA pupils do not drive cars into schools or children coming out of school, or not as yet, they do not, as far as I know burn schools down. They grab some guns and shoot teachers and pupils down.

I think that the same has become true with driving vehicles into crowds or attacking people randomly with knives. It started, certainly, with terrorists, but has now become the easiest way and obvious way that someone with a grievance, especially if mixed with mental health problems can express their antagonism with the world outside theirsmall internal world.

The man involved in the Magdeburg killings was undoubtedly Saudi Arabian, but I think his actions at Magdeburg arise far more from hos clear mental derangement than any 'terrorist' reason. I think the same applied to Southport.

This to me opens a broader consideration. I think not enough consideration is given to, and thatnis the effect of cultural shcok on many immigrants, especially ssylum seekers, when they come to this country.

Many asylum seekers have lft their countries as the result of war and persecution, their journey here is deeply traumatic and then they have to try and live in a country whose language they may not speak and whose customs and culture are entirely different to theirs. I think the effect this can have on their mental health is rarely considered and that if more was done, pro actively to support their mental health and pick up problems when they start to arise, the proportion who get drawn to terrorist groups and extreme versions of their religion would be far fewer.

Bleeding hearts will destroy this country. We cant even give our own people proper mental health care. We already spend billions per year on these people. How do you know that they've not been indoctrinated already. Boat loads of fighting age men, being allowed into this country with out checks and balances being done.

M0nica

Every person is the result of the coming together of 2 different gene sets. What genes from each side go into the final mix is based on chance. It produces sinners and it produces saints.

We know that neural diversity is the result of genetics and i think there is reason to believe that some psychiatric conditions, psychpathy, for one, have genetic origins.

Good points MOnica. I also support the comments in your later post about the challenges faced by asylum seekers who have been traumatised in their home country and by their journey to the country where they seek refuge. They’re then living in a culture so different to previous experience. Years ago, I remember research confirming first generation immigrants were overly represented in mental health treatment centres.

The man arrested for the Magdeburg killings had Tommy Robinson as a follower on one of his social media accounts.

A number of people have mentioned his method of mounting this attack as terrorist related, as also the Southport attack., but I think that it is not as simple as that. As we see in so many aspectsof life, one person does something and it is novel and amusing, so everyone follows suit. This can apply to criminal attacks.

Look at school shootings in the USA. Between 1764 and 1998 there were 13 school shootings but since 1999 and the Columbine School shootings which commanded worldwide publicity there have been 21. Disaffected USA pupils do not drive cars into schools or children coming out of school, or not as yet, they do not, as far as I know burn schools down. They grab some guns and shoot teachers and pupils down.

I think that the same has become true with driving vehicles into crowds or attacking people randomly with knives. It started, certainly, with terrorists, but has now become the easiest way and obvious way that someone with a grievance, especially if mixed with mental health problems can express their antagonism with the world outside theirsmall internal world.

The man involved in the Magdeburg killings was undoubtedly Saudi Arabian, but I think his actions at Magdeburg arise far more from hos clear mental derangement than any 'terrorist' reason. I think the same applied to Southport.

This to me opens a broader consideration. I think not enough consideration is given to, and thatnis the effect of cultural shcok on many immigrants, especially ssylum seekers, when they come to this country.

Many asylum seekers have lft their countries as the result of war and persecution, their journey here is deeply traumatic and then they have to try and live in a country whose language they may not speak and whose customs and culture are entirely different to theirs. I think the effect this can have on their mental health is rarely considered and that if more was done, pro actively to support their mental health and pick up problems when they start to arise, the proportion who get drawn to terrorist groups and extreme versions of their religion would be far fewer.

"Parliamentary committee hearings will be held on December 30 into the attack in which Faeser and the heads of Germany’s domestic and foreign intelligence services will answer questions, a senior lawmaker told the AFP news agency."

It appeared in several major newspapers on the very first reports including the Telegraph as "Terror" related, its how it was first announced and indeed appeared in the headline to this thread..

Al Jazeera's report quite interesting as in "the original assumptions were" but "since discovered that....."

www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/12/24/germany-magdeburg-christmas-market-attacker-what-we-know-so-far