Reform. 140,748 members and counting. The Tories are well and truly in trouble!

ronib

MaizieD okay the French system doesn’t seem to suffer from the same ideological issues which plague the UK. It seems to work well in France.
Exactly how this country recovers any sense of normal service remains to be seen. I am waiting in anticipation for the great unveiling in the spring by the current in place health secretary. So let’s wait and see how the funding works then.

Which ideological issues do you mean?

ronib

MaizieD Amanda Pritchard as head of the NHS was promoting the best bang for your buck approach- that sounds like ideology to me.

Or a pragmatic approach.

MaizieD Amanda Pritchard as head of the NHS was promoting the best bang for your buck approach- that sounds like ideology to me.

ronib

MaizieD okay the French system doesn’t seem to suffer from the same ideological issues which plague the UK. It seems to work well in France.
Exactly how this country recovers any sense of normal service remains to be seen. I am waiting in anticipation for the great unveiling in the spring by the current in place health secretary. So let’s wait and see how the funding works then.

Not sharing the same ideological issues still has nothing to do with the funding.

The French health system is better because it's better funded.

There is nothing magical about it being part insurance based that makes it better than our NHS.

MaizieD okay the French system doesn’t seem to suffer from the same ideological issues which plague the UK. It seems to work well in France.
Exactly how this country recovers any sense of normal service remains to be seen. I am waiting in anticipation for the great unveiling in the spring by the current in place health secretary. So let’s wait and see how the funding works then.

We don't have any 'socialism', Boz.

The Americans don't have a clue as to what socialism is, so why on earth do we have to take any notice of what they think?

Even if the Uk switched overnight to a part State funded part insurance health model, it would not make any difference a

This is where you're not putting 2 and 2 together, ronib. The source of the funding is utterly irrelevant. It's all money, wherever it comes from.

What is relevant is the amount of money it is given and the use that is made of it.

I'm willing to bet that the French Health Service hasn't been messed about for ideological reasons and kept short of money for the past 14 years.

I have just read Chris Mason's summing up of the political year on the BBC app. Read it yourself but the following points got my interest:

The Support for Labour is broad but shallow - the electorate is impatient for change (which I read as being fickle and up for change - Reform? ) so this Government is vulnerable as it is unlikely to satisfy demands.
Uncertainty from America where there is little sympathy for Socialism.

"Don't you think it might be an idea to investigate "how he goes about it" before you cast your vote - otherwise how do you know what it is you're voting for?"

Did Labour give a detailed plan how they were going to be able to keep the NHS going before the election?

We will see vague plans from Reform just as we see from Labour and the Tories.
I have no side in the fight, I never voted this election because the Tories were terrible but I felt Labour would carry on the status quo.

Can we afford to carry on the slow decline or will we need to shake the way we do things, this may include us having to pay more for things bit the days of having everything are coming to an end.

Talking with the GC over Christmas they say the biggest problem is they can't afford a house. Reform are reaching them on social media and they like what they see.

"Not quite true - but it depends which aspect of "what we do" that you are referring to? For example, we are still among world leaders in innovation and technology, especially in Science, Medicine and Engineering..."

Ok but what is this worth when China just copies our IP, this is what Trump has a problem with.

Ohhowwelaughed

It's ok saying we want to keep the NHS as it is but where will the money come from?

Before Christmas we had our flying club meeting, now people in the flying community tend to have the money/ run businesses etc.

I have never heard so much anger about what is happening and many are talking about pulling out of the UK

I do not vote for any of them because as we are seeing Labour said they were going to change the way we do politics, here we are 6 months in and it's same old jobs for the mates in the house of lords etc.

If Reform can manage to change the way politics works then good luck to then as I may vote that way but how he goes about it is beyond my pay grade.

Has how we have done politics in this country for the last 50 years worked? Are your grandchildren better off than we were?
If so keep voting the way you do .

We still have this distorted vision in this country that others look at what we do with envy.. Them days are long gone

If Reform can manage to change the way politics works then good luck to then as I may vote that way but how he goes about it is beyond my pay grade.

Don't you think it might be an idea to investigate "how he goes about it" before you cast your vote - otherwise how do you know what it is you're voting for?

We still have this distorted vision in this country that others look at what we do with envy.. Them days are long gone

Not quite true - but it depends which aspect of "what we do" that you are referring to? For example, we are still among world leaders in innovation and technology, especially in Science, Medicine and Engineering...

???

If so keep voting the way you do

Oh ok 😀
#floatingvoter

It's ok saying we want to keep the NHS as it is but where will the money come from?

Before Christmas we had our flying club meeting, now people in the flying community tend to have the money/ run businesses etc.

I have never heard so much anger about what is happening and many are talking about pulling out of the UK

I do not vote for any of them because as we are seeing Labour said they were going to change the way we do politics, here we are 6 months in and it's same old jobs for the mates in the house of lords etc.

If Reform can manage to change the way politics works then good luck to then as I may vote that way but how he goes about it is beyond my pay grade.

Has how we have done politics in this country for the last 50 years worked? Are your grandchildren better off than we were?
If so keep voting the way you do .

We still have this distorted vision in this country that others look at what we do with envy.. Them days are long gone

HousePlantQueen

nanna8

Everything costs a fortune for us in Australia because we are not eligible for a government pension. We think twice about going to the doctor and even though we have private health insurance for hospital cover ,the ‘gap’ between what is insured and what is not insured is very big. We get no relief on anything except public transport which we rarely use anyway. Do not, I repeat, do not, go down that road. We are not rich but we are not poor,either, so we get ‘punished’ If
Farage wants to bring in our system duck and run!

That's interesting Nanna8. Perhaps you could repeat this information whenever the Reform fan club assure us that Reform have the answer.

The Australian Age Pension is means-tested - not just income but assets are taken into account.

How does Medicare work, nanna8?
I though that was funded by taxation?

That's interesting Nanna8. Perhaps you could repeat this information whenever the Reform fan club assure us that Reform have the answer

I’ll second that HPQ and Nanna8!

One of my concerns regarding Reform, and Farage in particular, is his connections with Trump, Bannon etc., and the desire for American pharmaceutical companies to get a foothold into the UK market. Those in favour of the free market need to investigate the market price of any regular medication they are taking, at no cost to themselves if over pension age. A friend, aged 56, was told there was a shortage of her controlled drug which she 'pays' for with a prescription pass ( she has to take a lot of medication). In desperation, she enquired about the cost of buying the drug privately. In excess of £5k. For a month.

nanna8

Everything costs a fortune for us in Australia because we are not eligible for a government pension. We think twice about going to the doctor and even though we have private health insurance for hospital cover ,the ‘gap’ between what is insured and what is not insured is very big. We get no relief on anything except public transport which we rarely use anyway. Do not, I repeat, do not, go down that road. We are not rich but we are not poor,either, so we get ‘punished’ If
Farage wants to bring in our system duck and run!

That's interesting Nanna8. Perhaps you could repeat this information whenever the Reform fan club assure us that Reform have the answer.

As far as I am aware the insurance companies pay for the costs of running their own businesses

Mamie and, of course, the insurance companies raise the money needed to ‘run their businesses’ from the premiums paid by their customers.

Insurance is a highly lucrative money making industry ‘preying’ on people’s fear of the unknown. What greater fear than that of our health. “Kerching” for the insurance companies!!!

LizzieDrip

Dickens Reform UK PLC said in their ‘contract’ during the 2024 election campaign that they want a reform of the NHS funding model:

Reform UK has also called for a new NHS funding model. It wants the next government to look to countries like France, which has insurance-based health models

I think we can be fairly certain that Farage’s company will promote an insurance based health system; we just don’t know what they would look like.

I think we can be fairly certain that Farage’s company will promote an insurance based health system; we just don’t know what they would look like.

The devil will be in the detail!

I'm not opposed to looking at different funding models at all - I just don't trust Farage because I think he is at heart a free-market-libertarian.

Wyllow3

It's always good to live close to a big university hospital, isn't it? same in UK.

It's still necessary to have people in those insurance companies to process/check all the claims, collect fees and refund where relevant.

I'm not saying the French system is "Bad" per se, its just grown up like that just as the NHS has grown up with us,

but see no advantages in trying to switch to it except adding another layer of insurance managers and costs.
Switching could mean re-calibrating all our benefit systems the chaos, the civil servant time, the change in how we claim and manage our society.

I'm thinking that this discussion is in the context of Reform possible proposals and requests for some kind of overall direction/vision

because this just shows how, say, altering the delivery of a health system would in fact impact so many other areas of society and you cant separate them out.

This is the problem discussing headline sound bites.

As far as I am aware the insurance companies pay for the costs of running their own businesses. There are of course initial costs with setting up any system.
For me the good thing here is that if you can pay more towards supporting the cost of the health system then you do. There is also an additional tax that goes towards the whole social security system.
I am not sure how Farage and friends would feel about paying more to support the less well off, whichever system you use. 🤔

The state infra-structure provides the medic training, therefore the output should be of benefit to the people. The people should be treated based on clinical need. Insurance is a big con. For one off illnesses it might work, but as soon as pre existing conditions come into play, the exclusions, exemptions and premium rises. Insurance companies don't understand physiology.
The prime aim of health insurance is profit not health delivery, whereas in an NHS clinical need setting "provision" not "profit" is key. There is a reason why private buildings look nice as that is where the profit ends up and nice cars for the employees, the NHS should equally reward its staff.
We don't need bean counters at every stage. Also sundry charges esp in the usa are not based on market value but the cost to the organisation, so toothpaste might be $10 which on the local market might be 2, this is morally wrong. As for ID checks at each stage of treatment will just delay the process but might make xenophobes happy.

It's always good to live close to a big university hospital, isn't it? same in UK.

It's still necessary to have people in those insurance companies to process/check all the claims, collect fees and refund where relevant.

I'm not saying the French system is "Bad" per se, its just grown up like that just as the NHS has grown up with us,

but see no advantages in trying to switch to it except adding another layer of insurance managers and costs.
Switching could mean re-calibrating all our benefit systems the chaos, the civil servant time, the change in how we claim and manage our society.

I'm thinking that this discussion is in the context of Reform possible proposals and requests for some kind of overall direction/vision

because this just shows how, say, altering the delivery of a health system would in fact impact so many other areas of society and you cant separate them out.

This is the problem discussing headline sound bites.

In Norway, you pay for each medical visit/ procedure up to a certain amount per year, after which the state picks up the tab. People with long term chronic conditions are exempt, as are those in the benefit system.

The top-up insurers are just insurance companies. You can have house, car and health with the same company. No bureaucrats involved.

Wyllow3

Maybe it depends where you live in France, as this report from last year catalogues the difficulties in the French Health system - shortages of doctors/nurses, strikes on pay, people leaving the professions.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64216269

One issue does occur though. Time and time again there suggestions we could cut back on this or that civil servant or in the NHS management.

Yet if the UK changed to an insurance system, there would be a whole layer of people employed in insurance management adding not just to the £££ bills but also complications when claims go wrong, insurance disputes.

*Isn't it better to make our own system work better than adding this unnecessary layer of insurance bureaucrats*

It does depend on where you are. Large swathes of the very rural areas have problems attracting GPs and there are shortages of cardiologists and dermatologists outside hospitals. The regional health authorities try to mitigate this by having mobile or online surgeries and supporting smaller hospitals with staff from larger ones. Yes there are occasional strikes and works to rule, but this is France. We are lucky to live near a large university teaching hospital and we benefit from doctors who want to stay in the area.