Cheer up, Bridget, your lucky day is nigh!

The question was how can the VAT collected from fee-paying educational businesses.

It can be identified by the press of a button.

No tax is hypothecated of course, but it is a useful tool to use when being questioned about what and where spending is occurring.

There is however a link between policy and tax/spending.

This is difficult to write about on the basis of the O/P not just because of the information given on funding in it

but also saying we should notice a difference in weeks? Difference in what, in weeks?

I also couldn't find up to date information on enrolments in January, just September.

The drop in enrolments in September in private schools was matched by the drop in enrolments in schools overall

"The Independent Schools Council (ISC) said a survey of 1,185 member schools in the UK found their rolls fell by 1.7% when the school year started last month, compared with 2023."

but

" figures for England show that state school enrolments have also been falling, mainly because of the UK’s declining birthrate over the past decade.

The DfE said there was a 2.3% fall in the number of applications for primary school places this September, and a 1.7% fall in secondary school applications. "

(Thats's why there is assessed to be capacity in State Schools)

On the question of the fabric of school buildings, its treated separately from the VAT income which was specifically planned to fund 6.500 extra teachers in state schools. It was increased in the budget.

Information I found on the budget

The 2024-25 UK budget includes a number of funding items for education, including:

Core schools budget: £2.3 billion

(Childcare: £1.8 billion
Further education: £300 million)

Capital funding: £6.7 billion, including £1.4 billion for school rebuilding, £2 billion for school maintenance, and £950 million for skills capital

Teachers' pay award: £827.5 million for 2024-25

Teachers' Pension Scheme employer contribution rate: £1.1 billion for 2024-25

VAT on private school fees: 20% from January 1, 2025

The total funding for schools in England in 2024-25 is £60.7 billion, which is the highest ever in real terms per pupil

We lack full information tho to really discuss it properly?

Yes, TheatreLover. This is the jist of what I read on the newspaper stands this morning.
Rachel Reeves confirmed on Sunday that ‘every penny’ of the money raised from ending the VAT break for private education institutions will be invested solely into state schools. In the next year alone, an estimated £1.5 billion will be raised.

That's £1,500,000,000 isn't it? So ÷ by 3 to get the amount per term. I think the clue is in the word estimated.

Whitewavemark2

The question was how can the VAT collected from fee-paying educational businesses.

It can be identified by the press of a button.

No tax is hypothecated of course, but it is a useful tool to use when being questioned about what and where spending is occurring.

There is however a link between policy and tax/spending.

Thank you for your explanation. It is reassuring to know that there is a process whereby the VAT paid on school fees can be diverted to state schools.

Wyllow3

This is difficult to write about on the basis of the O/P not just because of the information given on funding in it

but also saying we should notice a difference in weeks? Difference in what, in weeks?

I also couldn't find up to date information on enrolments in January, just September.

The drop in enrolments in September in private schools was matched by the drop in enrolments in schools overall

"The Independent Schools Council (ISC) said a survey of 1,185 member schools in the UK found their rolls fell by 1.7% when the school year started last month, compared with 2023."

but

" figures for England show that state school enrolments have also been falling, mainly because of the UK’s declining birthrate over the past decade.

The DfE said there was a 2.3% fall in the number of applications for primary school places this September, and a 1.7% fall in secondary school applications. "

(Thats's why there is assessed to be capacity in State Schools)

On the question of the fabric of school buildings, its treated separately from the VAT income which was specifically planned to fund 6.500 extra teachers in state schools. It was increased in the budget.

Information I found on the budget

The 2024-25 UK budget includes a number of funding items for education, including:

Core schools budget: £2.3 billion

(Childcare: £1.8 billion
Further education: £300 million)

Capital funding: £6.7 billion, including £1.4 billion for school rebuilding, £2 billion for school maintenance, and £950 million for skills capital

Teachers' pay award: £827.5 million for 2024-25

Teachers' Pension Scheme employer contribution rate: £1.1 billion for 2024-25

VAT on private school fees: 20% from January 1, 2025

The total funding for schools in England in 2024-25 is £60.7 billion, which is the highest ever in real terms per pupil

We lack full information tho to really discuss it properly?

Thank you for this information, and it is good news that the total spending for state schools for 2024/5 will be the highest in real terms than hitherto.

One of our local schools is building on their large site, full time provision for 12 additional needs children, with plans and funding in place.

Aside from the lack of spaces for all children with additional needs, the assessments are so far behind.

My daughter teaches year 1 atm, she has 34 children in her class, two are non-verbal, three others are waiting for their assessments and one has severe issues with behaviour, but no obvious issues. The school laid off some TAs last term, so my daughter has to manage a large class of little ones, with just one TA, who is supposed to be for the one child who is “officially” assessed, with a plan and funding.

escaped

Yes, TheatreLover. This is the jist of what I read on the newspaper stands this morning.
Rachel Reeves confirmed on Sunday that ‘every penny’ of the money raised from ending the VAT break for private education institutions will be invested solely into state schools. In the next year alone, an estimated £1.5 billion will be raised.

That's £1,500,000,000 isn't it? So ÷ by 3 to get the amount per term. I think the clue is in the word estimated.

Yes, as you say, the clue is in the word 'estimated'. It'll certainly be interesting to see how educational services improve over the coming year.

Imo it isn’t just about the extra money that may or may not find its way into state education. But about the fact that, if there is no alternative that can be obtained by having more disposable income than other people,it will be in the best interest of everyone to provide every child in this country with the best education they can have so they can fulfil their potential regardless of how wealthy their family are.

Notagranyet24

Who was it said 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'?
Where I live, I discovered recently that children were being bussed or driven from Swindon to Stroud and vice versa and similarly from Stroud to Cheltenham. Madness. A well funded state school system is surely better value than a few children getting into the private system?
Exclusivity is hardly the way forward to a cohesive society?

So you're all very smug that some children's education has been disrupted, at the start of the exam year for some, people who work two maybe more jobs , sacrifice holidays to give their children the best education, and now, in Reeves own constituency for example, no school places available for these
GCSE children. So what now. This is a nasty vindictive policy, politically orientated, that will not raise said amount of millions, because very many won't be able to afford the rise in fees. Schools will close, putting more children at risk of having no school place to finish their school year. Still not to worry, at least Labour Mps will be able to keep their kids in private education.
All are equal, but some more equal than others eh!!!!

‘Well, I don’t know about where their children are being educated but I think parliaments got a greater number of state educated MP’s than before which, for equalities sake, can only be a good thing. Or should state schooled people be not be aspirational politically?

‘Oxbridge still figures predominantly in Starmer’s cabinet, accounting for 40 per cent of appointees, according to the Sutton Trust (that compares with 45 per cent of Sunak’s cabinet in October 2022). The Labour leader completed his undergraduate at the university of Leeds, and his postgrad at Oxford. Only transport secretary Louise Haigh went to private school; comprehensives accounted for 92 per cent. Among the cabinets of both Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss, one in five had gone to a comprehensive.

By contrast to Sunak’s cabinet, the pre-parliamentary experience of Starmer’s top team is balanced more evenly across the private, public and charity sectors, according to Pro Bono Economics.’

Freya5

Notagranyet24

Who was it said 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'?
Where I live, I discovered recently that children were being bussed or driven from Swindon to Stroud and vice versa and similarly from Stroud to Cheltenham. Madness. A well funded state school system is surely better value than a few children getting into the private system?
Exclusivity is hardly the way forward to a cohesive society?

So you're all very smug that some children's education has been disrupted, at the start of the exam year for some, people who work two maybe more jobs , sacrifice holidays to give their children the best education, and now, in Reeves own constituency for example, no school places available for these
GCSE children. So what now. This is a nasty vindictive policy, politically orientated, that will not raise said amount of millions, because very many won't be able to afford the rise in fees. Schools will close, putting more children at risk of having no school place to finish their school year. Still not to worry, at least Labour Mps will be able to keep their kids in private education.
All are equal, but some more equal than others eh!!!!

There’s no evidence that children are being withdrawn from private schools mid year as a result of this move, which had been Labour policy for years before they were elected, and the implications of which had been widely publicised and was known about by private schools and parents. It’s time to get real.

There’s no evidence that children are being withdrawn from private schools mid year as a result of this move, which had been Labour policy for years before they were elected, and the implications of which had been widely publicised and was known about by private schools and parents. It’s time to get real.

But is there any evidence that these private school staff and parents actually voted Labour knowing about these policies?

Frankly if parents’ budgets are so tight that a rise of 20% in fees would be impossible to meet, then you wonder at the risk they were taking in stretching things so tightly that it sinks the boat.

That is their choice of course, but I would never risk our budget to such an extent. It is irresponsible, to have the child’s education on such a tight wire.

Allira

^There’s no evidence that children are being withdrawn from private schools mid year as a result of this move, which had been Labour policy for years before they were elected, and the implications of which had been widely publicised and was known about by private schools and parents. It’s time to get real.^

But is there any evidence that these private school staff and parents actually voted Labour knowing about these policies?

No, but they wouldn’t need to do so themselves to realise that after 14 years of the Tories it was likely that Labour would win the election, I can’t believe that they didn’t contingency plan.

TheatreLover

I had always assumed that VAT paid, from whatever source, is credited to a 'VAT pot'. If this is so, does anyone know if it is possible for the VAT paid on school fees to be transferred to educational services specifically?

Freya - "^some children's education has been disrupted, at the start of the exam year for some, people who work two maybe more jobs , sacrifice holidays to give their children the best education, and now, in Reeves own constituency for example, no school places available for these
GCSE children.^
All are equal, but some more equal than others eh!!!!"

I think the aim is to even up the inequality already existing for the special-needs children of those parents who already work two or more jobs and don't have holidays, and still cannot afford the one-to-one tuition that their children need but whose schools cannot afford to provide what is needed for them.

The Labour Party Manifesto did include the application of business rates and VAT to private schools.

"Revenue from applying VAT and business rates to private schools 2028/29:£1,510m" to fund policies in 2029/30 ie 5-6 years in the future.

Whitewavemark2

Frankly if parents’ budgets are so tight that a rise of 20% in fees would be impossible to meet, then you wonder at the risk they were taking in stretching things so tightly that it sinks the boat.

That is their choice of course, but I would never risk our budget to such an extent. It is irresponsible, to have the child’s education on such a tight wire.

20% is a fair amount of money on top of school fees.

The fees at our local independent schools are around £25,000 pa, if two children in the family are pupils then that would be 20% of £50,000 ie £10,000 pa, perhaps the difference between just affording the fees and making finances really tight.

Our DGC'S school fees are roughly £4500 per term. We, as the fee payers, have to pay an extra £900 from January 1st, that's £2,700 per year.
If you multiply that figure by the 600,000 children in private education you come almost bang on the £1.5 billion Labour estimate will be collected.

Allira

Whitewavemark2

Frankly if parents’ budgets are so tight that a rise of 20% in fees would be impossible to meet, then you wonder at the risk they were taking in stretching things so tightly that it sinks the boat.

That is their choice of course, but I would never risk our budget to such an extent. It is irresponsible, to have the child’s education on such a tight wire.

20% is a fair amount of money on top of school fees.

The fees at our local independent schools are around £25,000 pa, if two children in the family are pupils then that would be 20% of £50,000 ie £10,000 pa, perhaps the difference between just affording the fees and making finances really tight.

🤔 if you can afford £50k a year plus of course all the extras …..

Does it need saying?

In terms of advance warning, private schools have been aware for some time the possibility of VAT. Certainly from July 2023.

www.mha.co.uk/insights/labours-policy-on-placing-vat-on-private-school-fees

I think it very likely this information was made available to parents. The article it spells it out in detail.

I don't see why the public generally should subsidise private schools and private education by not charging VAT

Freda I looked up the claim that GCSE pupils couldn't find places in Rachel Reeves constituency and it originated in one article in the Telegraph only where it said that GSCE students were "at risk" of not finding places.

There is no further information on the internet I can find that confirms there actually were no places; have you a source? I suspect had this been the case it would have been all over the press!

Totally agree Freya5. The politics of envy are well and truly evident in the actions of this divisive party.

Bixiboo

Totally agree Freya5. The politics of envy are well and truly evident in the actions of this divisive party.

What makes you think it is envy that makes people want fairness in society? All I can think of is that envy must be a driver for those who assume it of others, as it's not the conclusion I jump to at all.

If paying VAT means that some children are no longer able to get the education their parents have been paying for, they are simply being put in the same position as the majority, for whom £50k a year (never mind £50k plus 20%) is more than the household income.

What is 'divisive'? That most people couldn't even think about paying that to educate two children, or that those who can are being asked to fall in line with the taxation that everyone else pays on non-essential items? I assume that if a private education were deemed essential it would be free to everyone?

Until Labour abolished grammar schools and direct grant places at private schools, able working class children got the same opportunity for a selective academic education. Labour stopped that

The 11+. Which made some children, at the age of 11, feel like failures and channelled them into a substandard system of education? I wonder how many of the children that were given a grant to go to a private school were bullied and ridiculed for coming from a poor background the way I was at Grammar School?

Oh I dunno. I went to a posh grammar school. Ordinary family, hard working parents renting a huge terraced house in Old Trafford. No car, no telephone, no fancy treats. I was never bullied, learnt an awful lot and was grateful for the opportunities I was given. My younger sister followed me. We both learned the value of a good education where expectations were high. Our confidence grew. Inwardly we realised we were equal to anybody. Just poorer, but that was okay.