"lf Farage succeeds in destroying the Torieswe are doomed to perpetual Left-wing rule" (Telegraph headline)

Casdon

I listened to a very interesting critique of Reform by Maximilien Robespierre this afternoon, building on an interview with Sir John Curtice on GB News.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq5yRxKrlyg

It's a very good summary. Sadly, Reform voters are very under-informed about the real intentions of their party. Just like the MAGA supporters they don't understand the only intention is to allow the already rich to get richer.

I watch and read quite a bit about American politics as a proportion of my family are American. Noticeably, I am seeing more headlines and discussions along the lines of "Low-income Trump voters panic as they realise he will slash their benefits". It's been slow but it is happening rather as it has done with some pro-Brexit voters.

However, some will never see it even as their benefits and what workers rights they have, are taken away. The bigger the assault is the harder it is to accept. Tell me someone stole a fiver from me and Ill blame myself. Tell me they stole my lifes savings and I'll blame you. It's how human nature works.

Dickens

Does anyone on here think Labour are what is traditionally called 'left-wing'?

The frequent communications about "difficult decisions", "pain", "things are worse than we ever imagined", "tough actions", etc, etc, is reminiscent of Osborne's and Cameron's we're-all-in-it-together, blaming the previous government for having to take those same old "difficult decisions".

When I think of left-wing, I think of Corbyn, who was rejected by the electorate.

Well, left of centre. We do need to remember that political parties can not afford to get moribund and backward looking and need to change and adapt as the electorate changes.

Generally the parties most to the left or the right do not get elected because they do not reflect the popular vote. Corbyn is a classic example.

Reform are currently boasting of having more members than the Conservative party, but we are still talking about well under 150,00 people in an electorate of 48 million approximately.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter a toot how many members a party has. It is all the people who belong to no party at all that decide who will be voted into Parliament. Not the 150,000 but the 47,850,000 other voters.

Does anyone on here think Labour are what is traditionally called 'left-wing'?

The frequent communications about "difficult decisions", "pain", "things are worse than we ever imagined", "tough actions", etc, etc, is reminiscent of Osborne's and Cameron's we're-all-in-it-together, blaming the previous government for having to take those same old "difficult decisions".

When I think of left-wing, I think of Corbyn, who was rejected by the electorate.

sundowngirl

"Many of these too are highly skilled engineers, teachers etc. Almost all would give anything to be able to work and not have to sit around in stultifying boredom all day."

How do you know M0nica? Do you have proof of this? A good proportion of them cannot speak english and have thrown away their passports so we have no way of knowing anything about them

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/english-language-use-and-proficiency-of-migrants-in-the-uk/

learningandwork.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Skills-Audits-for-Asylum-Seekers-and-Refugees-A-Practitioner%E2%80%99s-Manual.pdf

In archaeology there is a phrase - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and I think you too should quote links that show that assylum seekers are uneducated people who do not speak English and are incapable of learning it

Every year school exam results show children who have been in this country for only a couple of years, after long traumatic journeys getting to the UK going from not speaking English to getting high grades at GCSE and A level in a very short time and many adult refugees are just as capable of becoming fluent English soeakers in a very short time.

love0c

We need Reform to destroy the Tories. The Tories let us down big time. Labour are proving even worse. Goodness knows who was daft enough to vote for them.

The Tories have more or less succeeded in destroying themselves, they didn't and don't need Reform to do it for them.

And who is "we" anyway?

As far as I can tell, there are still those who would like to see the Conservative party rebuild itself, perhaps with more competence and less sleaze, and a return to core Conservative values.

The fact is, we are a very divided nation, and if you think Reform (like any other party) has all the answers and will manage to placate the polar-opposites, I believe you will be disappointed.

It's a huge intellectual challenge to persuade a population that has been promised jam-tomorrow for the last 14 or so years; and at the same time appease the super wealthy with promises of tax-cuts, and mollify the middle-income bracket.

I don't think Farage / Reform have the answers any more than any other party.

I listened to a very interesting critique of Reform by Maximilien Robespierre this afternoon, building on an interview with Sir John Curtice on GB News.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq5yRxKrlyg

We need Reform to destroy the Tories. The Tories let us down big time. Labour are proving even worse. Goodness knows who was daft enough to vote for them.

I agree it's a shame there is no way currently of allowing asylum seekers to work, (whatever the work) but it's the same across Europe.

Whether its the cost of adequate supervision or caution I don't know.

"Many of these too are highly skilled engineers, teachers etc. Almost all would give anything to be able to work and not have to sit around in stultifying boredom all day."

How do you know M0nica? Do you have proof of this? A good proportion of them cannot speak english and have thrown away their passports so we have no way of knowing anything about them

karmalady

and set the able-bodied migrants to work, supervised, in return for bed, board, warmth plus a bit of pocket money and points for work ethic. They could work on infrastructure, cleaning, litter-picking and so on

Most immigrants are working. many in highly skilled jobs like in the NHS, in the IT industry .

The ones that are not PERMITTED to work, are asylum seekers and illegal immigrants whose refugee claims have not yet been decided. Many of these too are highly skilled engineers, teachers etc. Almost all would give anyhting to be able to work and not have to sit around in stultifying boredom all day.

Freya as I’m sure you’re aware, the WFA has not been removed; it has been means tested!

Freya5

Notagranyet24

Boz

I am disappointed to see Labour pursue Tribal grievances:

Hit the Pensioners (Usually Tory) with removal of WFA.

Hit the Private Schools .

Hit the Farmers - usually County and Tory.

Where would you suggest they get the funds needed to put the country back on its feet?

By not sending billions to other countries,by not giving overpaid train drivers a massive pay rise. How's that for starters!

Let third world countries starve, and not develop their own infrastructures, resulting in more deaths and people being forced to keave, do you mean?

and set the able-bodied migrants to work, supervised, in return for bed, board, warmth plus a bit of pocket money and points for work ethic. They could work on infrastructure, cleaning, litter-picking and so on

Notagranyet24

Boz

I am disappointed to see Labour pursue Tribal grievances:

Hit the Pensioners (Usually Tory) with removal of WFA.

Hit the Private Schools .

Hit the Farmers - usually County and Tory.

Where would you suggest they get the funds needed to put the country back on its feet?

By not sending billions to other countries,by not giving overpaid train drivers a massive pay rise. How's that for starters!

LizzieDrip

*If Farage succeeds in destroying the Tories we are doomed to perpetual Left-wing rule*

GOOD

Iam64

I’m with spabbygirl in that I accept the decisions on WFA, IH and private schools. I do wonder where someone like Alistair Campbell is to front these kind of policies which are bound to inflame the Mail and Telegraph, no analysis just Outrage.

I’m a long term Labour voter but - left wing???? Not according to the left activists in my CLP 😉

I do wonder where someone like Alistair Campbell is to front these kind of policies which are bound to inflame the Mail and Telegraph, no analysis just Outrage.

... "no analysis just Outrage"...

That's a really neat expression Iam64!

You seem to be addressing the connection between National Insurance (NI) increases and economic growth, the impact of remote work on productivity, the state of the labour market, and housing concerns, TerriBull. I'll comment on them individually:

National Insurance Increase and Economic Growth:
1. Investment in Public Services: While the increase in employer's National Insurance may appear counterproductive in the short term, it funds essential public services, including healthcare and education. A well-funded public sector can lead to a stronger economy in the long run.
2. Support for Workers and Families: Higher employer contributions can also enable government investment in training programs and workforce development, which may enhance productivity and, ultimately, foster economic growth.
3. Long-term Strategy: Businesses often take a longer view of their finances than just the immediate impact of tax increases. The potential benefits of a healthier workforce and better public services could outweigh the costs over time.

Remote Work and Civil Service Productivity:
1. Flexibility and Productivity: Research has shown that flexible working arrangements can increase employee satisfaction and productivity. Many private sector companies have adopted hybrid models that still yield high productivity.
2. Adapting to Change: The public sector should continue to adapt to the new realities of work. A balanced approach to remote and in-office work may bring out the best in employees while maintaining service delivery.

Employment Trends and Labour Dynamics:
1. Labour Market Adjustments: While there's concern that NI increases might lead to reduced hiring, it's also important to note that labour markets are dynamic. Employers will adjust their strategies rather than simply cut back on hiring.
2. Ongoing Skills Shortages: Many sectors face labour shortages, making it crucial for companies to invest in recruitment and training even in a challenging economic environment.

Challenges in the Housing Market:
1. Addressing Demand and Supply: The housing crisis is complex and has been decades in the making. Labour's proposals to invest in social housing and regulate the rental market are essential in addressing supply-side issues.
2. Population Growth and Housing: While population growth has contributed to housing demand, policies aimed at increasing housing availability through investment in construction, infrastructure, and community development can help alleviate pressure on the market.
3. A Balanced Approach to Immigration: Acknowledging the contributions of immigrants to the economy can help frame discussions on housing and public services. A well-managed immigration policy can benefit everyone while making resources available for new arrivals.

Public Sentiment and Expectations:
1. Understanding Public Concerns: The frustrations expressed regarding transport and housing are valid and reflect broader systemic issues. Any government needs to address these concerns transparently and improve public services.
2. Investing in Infrastructure: To support economic growth, Labour must prioritize not just social housing but also public transport improvements, helping to alleviate congestion and provide better services for commuters.

While the concerns raised are valid the new government has been in power for just five months. During that time it has emphasizing investment in public services, been prepared to adapt to the new work culture and addressed labour shortages. It has implementing comprehensive housing policies.

Wouldn't the government become more centrist as a realistic opposition to the far right?

If Farage succeeds in destroying the Tories we are doomed to perpetual Left-wing rule

GOOD

TerriBull I was interested in your last sentence "However, that seems to be a problem in many parts of the developed world." I checked and you are right: however in Europe we are reckoned to have the greatest problems. Its like we've been sleepwalking doing little about it and now like other areas a huge issue.

Whitewavemark2

I think that Labour performance so far has been like the curates egg, and where it has performed badly the charge in my view is at Reeves door.

She appears to have all the subtlety of a blacksmiths hammer, and her biggest mistake was the way she handled the announcements of what she should have known were going to be very unpopular, and used by the right wing media.

That is not to say that I disagree with her entirely. I do think the universality of WFA was ridiculous, and I also think that the huge tax breaks that wealthy parents got from choosing to privately educate their children was an anomaly that needed sorting out.

With regard to inheritance tax and farmers. Most farms will be unaffected by the changes, and those that are will still be treated significantly more generously than the rest of us, and indeed more generously treated than farmers in the past. A number of strategies are open to farming businesses to avoid inheritance tax, and I’m quite sure that these will be fully exploited.

But on balance, I am reasonably satisfied with labours performance to date, however my impatience at wanting to see improvements within a few months of taking office is a bit immature I will admit, but I do realise that the enormous hill we have to climb will take time.

Yes, broadly agree. its been a summer of revelations about just how badly many public series have been run down for so long and how big the mountain is to climb.

Apart from the universal removal of WFA, given Labour's mission was to grow the economy the hike in employer's NI is surely going to prove counter productive to that, it makes no sense in the context of growth. Companies are going to cut back on recruitment, training programmes and investment, they already are. I imagine in the long term we will see a hike in unemployment. In the meantime productivity is sluggish within departments of the Civil Service where swathes continue to work from home, with a mindset still entrenched in the time of Covid. I know from family members who work in the private sector many companies have moved on with an expectation of employees being in the office 3 days a week.

In spite of this government giving train drivers ridiculous increases, they still can't get some to work an extra day's overtime for £600, think of how many would literally bite the hand off their employer being offered that sort of money. Train services continue to be shambolic for commuters shorter trains people squashed in like cattle, for which they pay an extortionate amount for the privilege of travelling in dirty over crowded carriages..

I'll be interested to see whether they can turn the housing situation around, it's early days and successive governments haven't improved that situation. The ST pointed out in its housing supplement a couple of weeks ago, and it's too often ignored, that as well as landlords selling up since previous Chancellor, George Osborne did his bit to reduce properties available, since 2016 under the Tories 3 million people have been added to the population, many settling in our urban areas, in particular the south east where for every flat there are now 22 people chasing that property which poses the question can Labour make enough social housing available to assuage the demand when we have an exponential increase in our population year on year, and yes I know some of our young are leaving for Australia, but that's a trickle in comparison to the newly arrived settlers. I'm not anti immigration per se but our resources are finite and we have to be able to accommodate those who wish to settle here without the existing population feeling that their potential opportunities of acquiring a home of their own are not being jeopardised by too many people chasing too few properties, which as things stand at the moment are increasingly becoming more unaffordable. However, that seems to be a problem in many parts of the developed world.

Telegraph writing hyperbole at its best: we are all "doomed".

I think that Labour performance so far has been like the curates egg, and where it has performed badly the charge in my view is at Reeves door.

She appears to have all the subtlety of a blacksmiths hammer, and her biggest mistake was the way she handled the announcements of what she should have known were going to be very unpopular, and used by the right wing media.

That is not to say that I disagree with her entirely. I do think the universality of WFA was ridiculous, and I also think that the huge tax breaks that wealthy parents got from choosing to privately educate their children was an anomaly that needed sorting out.

With regard to inheritance tax and farmers. Most farms will be unaffected by the changes, and those that are will still be treated significantly more generously than the rest of us, and indeed more generously treated than farmers in the past. A number of strategies are open to farming businesses to avoid inheritance tax, and I’m quite sure that these will be fully exploited.

But on balance, I am reasonably satisfied with labours performance to date, however my impatience at wanting to see improvements within a few months of taking office is a bit immature I will admit, but I do realise that the enormous hill we have to climb will take time.

I’m with spabbygirl in that I accept the decisions on WFA, IH and private schools. I do wonder where someone like Alistair Campbell is to front these kind of policies which are bound to inflame the Mail and Telegraph, no analysis just Outrage.

I’m a long term Labour voter but - left wing???? Not according to the left activists in my CLP 😉