Democracy under threat

I think the OP was writing from an American perspective, where the Christian right certainly has an influence amongst certain demographics, that isn't really the case here, although there are schools of religious persuasions who have been known to peddle certain teachings that would not be in accordance with the general ethos of what is acceptable. Having said that she was very selective in castigating the right, the left have also had an undue influence especially around culture wars and in particular how natal girls and women have been impacted in sports and having their private spaces removed, changing rooms etc. and penalised for speaking out against all of that. Over here, like there, we've seen a shutting down of debate and no platforming in our universities, due to sensitivities around issues that cannot be debated, sometimes incurring a violent backlash. Both left and right wing factions can resort to violence if thwarted in their objectives. To expect never to be offended or not to be able to stand ground and fight an issue with debates rather than resorting to violence shows both sides up imo The left and the right both employ regressive and aggressive tactics when opposed as if their beliefs should be enshrined, we've seen it over and over again recently. Once people embrace the extremes of the political spectrum whether it be on the right or the left, there isn't much to choose between them. They inhabit a world of tunnel vision and echo chambers and cease to engage with the mainstream.

The people I know who voted leave were across the social profile but right leaning, their logic was migration/xenophobia and sovereignty.
They did not consider the practical or economic consequences, of leaving.

It's the left who are extremely violent on our streets

Er, no

KateW19

No it’s absolutely correct that the lower education attainment, the more likely a person would vote for far right groups, and likewise higher ed attainment vote left. One of the reasons right wing groups ban books in schools

What a ridiculous and untrue statement.
It is the left who are banning books, don't echo their ideology, may upset students etc. . Written by a London based teacher in the Guardian in 2017. So left wing ideology has been with us for a long time in our schools. "The 1996 Education Act was to present different political beliefs and to not promote partisan political views. Yet my shool is an echo chamber for left wing views of its staff and students parents. Views that fall outside of the accepted left liberal spectrum get short shrift in my staffroom".
Cannot stand the smug dictat of writing off people who have not obtained a University degree.
It's the left who are extremely violent on our streets, especially if someone disagrees with their ideology.

petra

From my ow experience of people who voted to leave the vast majority took no notice what’s so ever of what the government and the media were saying.
Their vote to leave was based on their own ( of families) personal experience.
When 10 counties joined the EU in 2004 my town ( Southend) had big influx of migrants.
2 friends lost shopfitting business’s to cheap Labour. That didn’t work out well for the companies employing the cheap Labour. Their customer weren’t impressed with standard of work.
Another friend had a pub on the seafront. He was frequently threatened by Eastern Europeans for protection money.
Shops were beyond angry at the shop lifting and being told by the police that theirwas nothing they could do.
Hair dressers had women coming in and then refusing to pay.
Then there was the housing fiasco ( told by a housing officer friend) women would arrive at the council office with several young children claiming they were her own. No paperwork to prove otherwise.

I think you are absolutely right when you say that people who voted to leave took absolutely no notice of any argument to stay or leave, I knew that I would vote to leave regardless.

From my ow experience of people who voted to leave the vast majority took no notice what’s so ever of what the government and the media were saying.
Their vote to leave was based on their own ( of families) personal experience.
When 10 counties joined the EU in 2004 my town ( Southend) had big influx of migrants.
2 friends lost shopfitting business’s to cheap Labour. That didn’t work out well for the companies employing the cheap Labour. Their customer weren’t impressed with standard of work.
Another friend had a pub on the seafront. He was frequently threatened by Eastern Europeans for protection money.
Shops were beyond angry at the shop lifting and being told by the police that theirwas nothing they could do.
Hair dressers had women coming in and then refusing to pay.
Then there was the housing fiasco ( told by a housing officer friend) women would arrive at the council office with several young children claiming they were her own. No paperwork to prove otherwise.

Galaxy

Yes I think there is a far right, I dont think it includes JkRowling, over 50 % of Americans or to be honest people who vote Reform.

Sorry - my previous reply was to your previous post.

I don't believe that the people you mention are (necessarily) far right either, but some of the 50% of Americans and some Reform voters will be.

I don't think that we can stop discussing the far right because people have different ideas about what it means. Personally, I think that a lot of talk about left and right (near mind 'far' versions of either) is wide of the mark, but that's by the way.

Yes, I can see what you mean there. As you know, I agree with you that men can't be women; but there are those who disagree. Are you saying that only what we believe is 'truth'?

Yes I think there is a far right, I dont think it includes JkRowling, over 50 % of Americans or to be honest people who vote Reform.

Well of course you can discuss them but I dont see how anyone can be expected to take it seriously. If you have national broadcasters saying male rapists are women,(the easiest example but not the only one) supported by most political parties, how on earth can they talk about misinformation with a straight face. It just doesnt work.
It is incredibly dangerous that people have no faith in institutions but it is where a lot of people are.

Galaxy

I think if as a society you embrace lies (not you personally!) then it is very hard to complain when people posts lies on social media. I am afraid along with 'far right' the word 'misinformation' is just white noise to be now.

But don't you think there is a 'far Right', and a 'far Left'?

... in terms of veering away from the centre-ground of each ideology?

Galaxy

I think if as a society you embrace lies (not you personally!) then it is very hard to complain when people posts lies on social media. I am afraid along with 'far right' the word 'misinformation' is just white noise to be now.

So how can the Far Right (or misinformation) be discussed if every time someone mentions them they are dismissed?

I'm not sure of your point, really. What does 'society embracing lies' involve in real terms? Yes, some people believe things that I don't, and I will believe things that others don't. In both cases some of those things will be lies and others not. Where does 'society' come in here?

At times your posts read like a deliberate attempt to show yourself as cynical in ways that the rest of us can't aspire to.

I think if as a society you embrace lies (not you personally!) then it is very hard to complain when people posts lies on social media. I am afraid along with 'far right' the word 'misinformation' is just white noise to be now.

Doodledog

Agreed, Dickens that vague proclamations can't be nailed down as lies, but things like 'the NHS will have £350m a week if we leave' are most definitely lies.

'The UK will fall into recession' is not a lie, as it is open ended. We still might. If we do, whether we would have done if not for Brexit is open to debate (I have no idea), and if we don't, whether that is because we left the EU is also unclear.

(sorry - I missed your comment about this, BevSec).

Lies are deliberately told untruths. Not mistakes, or well-intentioned errors. Sometimes they are lies by omission and sometimes deliberate falsehoods. Sometimes things are true when they are stated, but untrue later, so are not lies but out of date statements.

I remember booking an engineer to fit Sky TV back in the day. My son was about seven, and excited at the thought of a football channel, so had invited his friends round. When the engineer arrived there were problems and he couldn't fit the dish that day. My son was very disappointed and I felt terrible, but I hadn't lied to him, had I?

I remember booking an engineer to fit Sky TV back in the day. My son was about seven, and excited at the thought of a football channel, so had invited his friends round. When the engineer arrived there were problems and he couldn't fit the dish that day. My son was very disappointed and I felt terrible, but I hadn't lied to him, had I?

An excellent analogy.

Your son probably failed to appreciate the technical / engineering difficulties and could have blamed you, but you were not lying because you didn't anticipate the immediate and unknowable problem at the time.

Lies are deliberately told untruths.

Yes. And they can be fact-checked. When they are though, and the truth / fact is revealed, it is often completely ignored. Some posters dive onto these threads, make a statement that is proved to be a lie, and they never return to acknowledge it. Then, what often happens is that another poster will say, "well, whatabout xxx..." And politicians get away with it like this, time and time again. Because we allow it. Because we are holding each other to account instead of them. And I think that is what they rely on.

Agreed, Dickens that vague proclamations can't be nailed down as lies, but things like 'the NHS will have £350m a week if we leave' are most definitely lies.

'The UK will fall into recession' is not a lie, as it is open ended. We still might. If we do, whether we would have done if not for Brexit is open to debate (I have no idea), and if we don't, whether that is because we left the EU is also unclear.

(sorry - I missed your comment about this, BevSec).

Lies are deliberately told untruths. Not mistakes, or well-intentioned errors. Sometimes they are lies by omission and sometimes deliberate falsehoods. Sometimes things are true when they are stated, but untrue later, so are not lies but out of date statements.

I remember booking an engineer to fit Sky TV back in the day. My son was about seven, and excited at the thought of a football channel, so had invited his friends round. When the engineer arrived there were problems and he couldn't fit the dish that day. My son was very disappointed and I felt terrible, but I hadn't lied to him, had I?

To be fair they are still failing to see that.

It's complex though.

Because some of those areas with a dense population of immigrants voted to Remain, whilst the more affluent South where contact with an immigrant (from anywhere) might be limited, voted to Leave.

What Remain failed to do was understand the complex psyche of the British / English citizen, and reduce the Leave/Remain issue to a simple equation.

Galaxy

Yes I agree with that. I also think Remain failed to see that immigration meant different things to different parts of society. To be fair they are still failing to see that.

The extremes of both sides are equally uncompromising.

Yes I agree with that. I also think Remain failed to see that immigration meant different things to different parts of society. To be fair they are still failing to see that.

Doodledog

BevSec

Doodledog

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I suppose we all think that about the “side” we didnt vote for. I think the remainer side lied too.

Ok, can you tell us any lies told by the 'remain' side, as I can't think of any?

Ok, can you tell us any lies told by the 'remain' side, as I can't think of any?

“The EU’s current institutions have serious failings and are undemocratic”
(Leave)

“The EU has a better level of democratic scrutiny than any other international body: the UN, NATO, WTO, IMF, World Bank etc.”
(Remain)

Discussions about democracy are essentially about yardsticks. Depending on what you look at, and compare against, you will get different answers. And in that sense, both arguments set out above are correct.

The underlying reason for this is that people don’t agree on what ‘democracy’ is.

(source: FULL FACT)

This is what it boils down to. As FULL FACT points out:

‘Democracy’ means different things to different people

It was difficult for Remain to promote an actual lie because it could be fact-checked as we were already a member of the EU.

IMO, what Remain failed to do is (a) understand that Democracy meant different things to different people and (b) in the same vein, did not understand that membership of the EU also meant different things to different people.

I once got jumped on for saying this, but I'll risk it - the apparent benefits and advantages of EU membership to people living in the economically-deprived areas of the UK would be markedly different to those in the wealthiest areas, like Surrey or Sussex. Certainly on a superficial level.

I don't think Remain lied, I think it failed to understand that the UK is a very divided and unequal society, and therefore could not possibly think with 'one mind' - on any matter, let alone the EU.

It really is worth reading further...

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-democracy/

The lies from the Brexit side didn’t stop at the referendum though, they continued right up to the present.

Doodledog

BevSec

Doodledog

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I suppose we all think that about the “side” we didnt vote for. I think the remainer side lied too.

Ok, can you tell us any lies told by the 'remain' side, as I can't think of any?

Please see above

BevSec

Doodledog

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I suppose we all think that about the “side” we didnt vote for. I think the remainer side lied too.

Ok, can you tell us any lies told by the 'remain' side, as I can't think of any?

MaizieD

Oreo

I was a Remain voter btw and the lie by Osborne was well documented.

I am not saying that it wasn't.

I was trying to think of examples of 'lies' told by the remain side. That was the one which was constantly quoted to us. That, and WW3 (which actually wasn't predicted, and what price NATO now?)

The analysis in this document comes to a clear central conclusion, a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000.

Osborne said

With exactly one month to go to the referendum, the British people must ask themselves this question, can we knowingly vote for a recession? Because thats what the evidence shows we will get if we vote to leave the EU.

Fortunately these scare tactics didnt work, and apparently they were based on nothing very much.

Oreo

I was a Remain voter btw and the lie by Osborne was well documented.

I am not saying that it wasn't.

I was trying to think of examples of 'lies' told by the remain side. That was the one which was constantly quoted to us. That, and WW3 (which actually wasn't predicted, and what price NATO now?)

petra

keepingquiet

Coming in a bit late here but doesn't the media also have something to answer for here?

TV made Trump and Twitter made Musk- maybe it is those who control the media we should be looking at most?

Spot on. The media and all that that entails have an awful lot to answer to 😡

Agreed. I sometimes wonder how the journalists on some of these media sites live with their consciences when they know the damage the misinformation causes.