Democracy under threat

keepingquiet

Coming in a bit late here but doesn't the media also have something to answer for here?

TV made Trump and Twitter made Musk- maybe it is those who control the media we should be looking at most?

Spot on. The media and all that that entails have an awful lot to answer to 😡

WellsRose

Galaxy

I think you will find that it was democracy that led to Trumps victory, it is always awful when people wont vote the way you want them to isnt it.

I thought the OP was talking about Musk. He isn't elected for anything.

Neither was Lord Ali, look what influence he had! Pot kettle black on this thread. All the anti Trump messages, this is a global forum, so many Trump voters may read your outpouring, do you think they'll care, I don't.
Our democracy is under threat from this Gov. They've already gone against article 10 of the HRA. "Freedom of speech with no interference from Governments." The police break it every day, threatening independant journalists, who won't tow the Government line.
Threatening to bring in blasphemy laws, so we cannot criticise a certain ideology.
Musk is no threat to us, he can use his free speech as allowed by his constitution. No one has to listen, I do , goes in one ear out of the other. People in this country have much more to be concerned about. This Government has chosen their own suspect advisors. Lord Ali for starters.
Our threats to Democracy lie much closer to home as far as I can see.

I was a Remain voter btw and the lie by Osborne was well documented.

Tbf there were some lies by Cameron and Osborne during the referendum about us being unsafe if out of the EU.Cameron even claimed that if it was a yes vote to Brexit, then the very next day an emergency economic plan would have to be put in place.There are always lies by ‘the other side’.

I think, *Wyllow, that leave voters will point to the leaflet sent out by the government which predicted instant financial disaster if the vote went in favour of leaving the EU as a lie told by the remain side

.Also they will claim that WW3 was predicted (it wasn’t). Though in view of the current geopolitical situation I rather think that their argument is decidedly weak.

I cant recall any lies from the remainer side BevSec.

I do recall long online discussions pointing out the situation that N Ireland would be left in, and so many lies it could all be sorted out by Brexteers, and what a mess that left us I for years as Teresa May tried to find a way round it whilst relying on the DUP for a majority, what a mess.

Doodledog

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

I suppose we all think that about the “side” we didnt vote for. I think the remainer side lied too.

possibly. There was however quite a lot of what a great candidate she was, and she was just awful.

I think you assume too much Galaxy. Wherever our alliances politically, we all have nuanced opinions, and more insight than you give credit to.

I dont think I am denying it Doodledog, I think I am saying it wasnt why Brexit won and it wasnt why Trump won. I am coming to the conclusion that there is a considerable chance that Farage will be PM in the future. If that happens it wont be because of any lies he may or may not tell.
I also dont believe that many people on here would be complaining about lies if Harris had won.

keepingquiet

Coming in a bit late here but doesn't the media also have something to answer for here?

TV made Trump and Twitter made Musk- maybe it is those who control the media we should be looking at most?

Zuckerberg's latest pronouncement

www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/07/meta-facebook-instagram-threads-mark-zuckerberg-remove-fact-checkers-recommend-political-content

Doodledog what a long muddled post from you, hard to make anything of it, perhaps be clearer in future as to who and what you’re addressing.I would further recommend that you don’t take things so personally.

Coming in a bit late here but doesn't the media also have something to answer for here?

TV made Trump and Twitter made Musk- maybe it is those who control the media we should be looking at most?

Galaxy

But the lies on the bus were no different to Biden is fine, there are no issues with son of Biden, men can be women, etc etc. I feel as if the only time lies and misinformation are discussed are when they are from the 'right'. It makes it very hard for me to trust these 'standards' of truthfulness (I am saying this in a general way, not aimed at any particular poster).
So I would say many who voted for the lies on the bus would see the left as having lied to them for a long time. They will probably say that about the Tories now too.

Maybe. Again, I am not presuming to decide why other people think as they do.

I agree that the lies on the bus and 'Biden was fine' weren't true, and agree absolutely about the 'men can be women' thing, but I apply my thoughts about that across the board. I don't think that accusations of lying are only discussed if they are from the right - look at how many people are accusing the government of lying now, and pretending that they are being even-handed when they never raised a peep when the Tories were found guilty in court of lying about parties and so on. Bias is bias, whichever side it's from.

Whether those who voted for Brexit think that the left has lied to them doesn't alter the fact that the bus had lies on it. In fact whether the left did (objectively) lie tho them won't alter that. Don't you think that denying that is Trumpian?

Just whaaaaat?!
Maybe just read what I say instead of just reacting for once?
Who’s telling you what to say? Or told you what you’re saying?Did I even * mention* you? Why would you think I mean you?
I didn't. I did read what you wrote, and therefore wasn't arguing with you. In fact I was agreeing with you but not with Galaxy
The ‘thinly veiled accusations of mendacity’ I have no idea what you’re on about or why my above post has pressed your buttons.
I was explaining what Galaxy had said that had pressed my buttons. It's not all about you!
Up to you if you don’t agree with DT winning, it’s democracy but you don’t have to like it.It’s quite another thing to believe it’s all the lies he tells that have got him to the White House yet again, when it’s obvious that his fan base were going to vote for him regardless.
I refer you to my post, where I spelt out that I didn't say that Trump won because of lies. I agree that we won, whether or not I like that fact. I actually said that, so it is blindingly obvious that you didn't bother to read my post, but decided for me what I think.
Just as here, it wouldn’t have mattered how many porkies the Conservatives told the electorate, the voters were going to vote for any party bar them.
Possibly. I can't speak for other people.

But the lies on the bus were no different to Biden is fine, there are no issues with son of Biden, men can be women, etc etc. I feel as if the only time lies and misinformation are discussed are when they are from the 'right'. It makes it very hard for me to trust these 'standards' of truthfulness (I am saying this in a general way, not aimed at any particular poster).
So I would say many who voted for the lies on the bus would see the left as having lied to them for a long time. They will probably say that about the Tories now too.

Doodledog

Oreo

I know exactly what Galaxy means, with every GE there are those very put out, me included over the 14 years the Conservatives were in power, but most of us I hope realised that our elections are fair and above board just as the US ones are.Fibs, misinformation broken or false promises come into it from all political parties and best not kid ourselves about that, but at the end of the day the voters sift through it all and vote the way they think and hope will be best.
It’s only the tribal few, relatively ,that moan it isn’t fair.

Yes, I agree (and IMO your comment about the tribal few has been more than played out on this board since the GE). But that's not the same thing at all as effectively removing the right to call out lies, so long as people are able to back up what they say (ie not just make constant unfounded accusations of lying because they have nothing concrete to say), and that they can (and are willing to) back it up when questioned, then we all have a right to say what we like.

If there is one thing that presses my buttons it is being told why I am saying what I'm saying - particularly if it comes laden with thinly-veiled accusations of mendacity. Pick holes in what I say, by all means. I may change my mind, or continue to disagree, but don't tell me why I am saying it.

I utterly disagree with your interpretation of the results whether it was two Trump wins or the Brexit win, (I voted remain by the way) , I think sections of society have been consistent in what they want.
Whose interpretation? If this refers to my point about the promises on the bus, what I said doesn't contradict the point that many people have been consistent in what they want, does it? I still think the claims on the bus, along with the 'sunlit uplands' were lies.

I agree that constantly telling people that they are too dim to know what they want is misguided. Both because it is guaranteed to alienate people and because it isn't true. Again, that doesn't contradict my assertion that there was never going to be an extra £350m a week going into the NHS after Brexit.

I'm not saying that Trump won because of lies. I am saying that assuming that anyone criticising anything is doing so because the results are not as they would have preferred is as bad as telling people that they are too stupid to know what they are voting for.

Just whaaaaat?!
Who’s telling you what to say? Or told you what you’re saying?Did I even * mention* you? Why would you think I mean you?
The ‘thinly veiled accusations of mendacity’ I have no idea what you’re on about or why my above post has pressed your buttons.
Up to you if you don’t agree with DT winning, it’s democracy but you don’t have to like it.It’s quite another thing to believe it’s all the lies he tells that have got him to the White House yet again, when it’s obvious that his fan base were going to vote for him regardless.
Just as here, it wouldn’t have mattered how many porkies the Conservatives told the electorate, the voters were going to vote for any party bar them.

Galaxy

I utterly disagree with your interpretation of the results whether it was two Trump wins or the Brexit win, (I voted remain by the way) , I think sections of society have been consistent in what they want.

Of course you would, Galaxy.

You'd much prefer to believe that we disagree with the results because they were voted for by stupid people.

Oreo

I know exactly what Galaxy means, with every GE there are those very put out, me included over the 14 years the Conservatives were in power, but most of us I hope realised that our elections are fair and above board just as the US ones are.Fibs, misinformation broken or false promises come into it from all political parties and best not kid ourselves about that, but at the end of the day the voters sift through it all and vote the way they think and hope will be best.
It’s only the tribal few, relatively ,that moan it isn’t fair.

Yes, I agree (and IMO your comment about the tribal few has been more than played out on this board since the GE). But that's not the same thing at all as effectively removing the right to call out lies, so long as people are able to back up what they say (ie not just make constant unfounded accusations of lying because they have nothing concrete to say), and that they can (and are willing to) back it up when questioned, then we all have a right to say what we like.

If there is one thing that presses my buttons it is being told why I am saying what I'm saying - particularly if it comes laden with thinly-veiled accusations of mendacity. Pick holes in what I say, by all means. I may change my mind, or continue to disagree, but don't tell me why I am saying it.

I utterly disagree with your interpretation of the results whether it was two Trump wins or the Brexit win, (I voted remain by the way) , I think sections of society have been consistent in what they want.
Whose interpretation? If this refers to my point about the promises on the bus, what I said doesn't contradict the point that many people have been consistent in what they want, does it? I still think the claims on the bus, along with the 'sunlit uplands' were lies.

I agree that constantly telling people that they are too dim to know what they want is misguided. Both because it is guaranteed to alienate people and because it isn't true. Again, that doesn't contradict my assertion that there was never going to be an extra £350m a week going into the NHS after Brexit.

I'm not saying that Trump won because of lies. I am saying that assuming that anyone criticising anything is doing so because the results are not as they would have preferred is as bad as telling people that they are too stupid to know what they are voting for.

I utterly disagree with your interpretation of the results whether it was two Trump wins or the Brexit win, (I voted remain by the way) , I think sections of society have been consistent in what they want.

I must be missing something. I thought this thread was about the unelected Musk, which is about the democratic process, but is not about how Trump came to power.

Trump had massive support in the US even though he had lost the previous election and had criminal charges brought against him.I thought it was obvious from the start that he would win, easily against Biden and less easily against Harris.

I know exactly what Galaxy means, with every GE there are those very put out, me included over the 14 years the Conservatives were in power, but most of us I hope realised that our elections are fair and above board just as the US ones are.Fibs, misinformation broken or false promises come into it from all political parties and best not kid ourselves about that, but at the end of the day the voters sift through it all and vote the way they think and hope will be best.
It’s only the tribal few, relatively ,that moan it isn’t fair.

Doodledog

Precisely, Dickens. I’m heartily sick of being told why I say what I say or think what I think. It’s just another way of trying to silence people.

It’s just another way of trying to silence people.

It's really little more than a variation on the riposte used to the Remain "Loser" - "you lost, get over it" ...

... or "end of".

It doesn't matter if during the race runners are trip-wired or elbowed out of the way, what matters is crossing the finish-line, eh?

Who cares how you got there!

The way you've phrased that makes it sound almost like people are simply disagreeing over the results of, for example, a football match.

I think the sporting analogy is quite appropriate, Dickens. Most people don't mind their team losing in a fair contest, but are rightly upset if the opposition doesn't play by the rules. That's nothing to do with it being the 'wrong result', it's about being denied a possible win because the other side cheated.

Though I'm sure Galaxy must be aware of this view?