Democracy under threat

It was in reference to Trump winning, that he only won because he lied. The Democrats lies were on an epic scale, if Harris had won the trump supporters would have been saying it wasnt a legitimate result, how is that any different. He didnt win because he lied, he won because people preferred him to the alternative.

Precisely, Dickens. I’m heartily sick of being told why I say what I say or think what I think. It’s just another way of trying to silence people.

Galaxy

And there are times when the results are not what you would want. I think to then say that is not democracy but is lies and spin is a very interesting path to tread. It is certainly an approach Trump would take.

Galaxy

And there are times when the results are not what you would want...

The way you've phrased that makes it sound almost like people are simply disagreeing over the results of, for example, a football match.

It's about more than simply not 'getting the results you want'.

If there are obvious signs or indications that a 'result' has been achieved by lies, misinformation, deception, then surely that result is open to question?

We know politics is a dirty game and we even accept a certain level of emotional manipulation by our politicians, but deliberate manipulation of facts, or downright lies to achieve a political outcome, surely can't be dismissed as, "oh well, that's democracy". It isn't.

And this applies to both Right and Left. IMO, Tony Blair manipulated the facts for the war in Iraq. And look where that has landed us.

Is that the same Musk senior who fathered a child by his stepdaughter? He did then marry her, but.....

BlueBelle

Having seen Musks father on TV this morning I ve never seen a nastier more objectionable man with such horrendous views including thinking Tommy Robinson should be out and leading the world
Listening to him you could really see where Hitler emerged from

I know there must be some lovely white South Africans (I do know one) but I think many are racist bigots.
The worst racist bile I ever heard was from an Afrikaaner many years ago in my own house. I felt as if I needed to burn white sage afterwards.

I agree with you about Brexit, but Brexit was not a general election.

I am not going to dig up past disasters and replay them, but the whole referendum from how it was devised to how it was run was a disaster waiting to happen and it did.

I don't think it is remotely Trumpian to say that the Brexit campaign was based on lies and spin.

If it is, under what circumstances is it ok by you to call out things like the NHS bus, and the sunlit uplands into which we were supposed to be heading?

And there are times when the results are not what you would want. I think to then say that is not democracy but is lies and spin is a very interesting path to tread. It is certainly an approach Trump would take.

In the words of Winston Churchill

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…

Oreo

What’s the alternative to democracy? There isn’t one, ( that’s any good) and however defective posters think it is, there isn’t anything better.

I agree.

It's the best we can do.

But it's a very uneven playing field.

What’s the alternative to democracy? There isn’t one, ( that’s any good) and however defective posters think it is, there isn’t anything better.

Dickens

growstuff

I agree with you Dickens, which is why I always remember that "democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

"democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

I've not heard that before, but it does neatly sum it up.

It's sometimes attributed to Benjamin Franklin, but that's an urban myth. I think it was first written by a journalist in the twentieth century.

The US's founding fathers were aware of the potential “tyranny of the majority”, which is why the constitution is sacrosanct and is supposed to protect minorities. The US is technically not a democracy. I wonder what they'd make of the way the constitution is currently being manipulated.

The UK, of course, has never had a single constitution. We've just muddled along and those in power have persuaded the people we live in a democracy, but I doubt if many people really think what it means.

posted too soon...

In March 2018, Robinson attended court in support of Mark Meechan, who had been charged for a hate crime after posting footage online of a dog performing Nazi salutes in response to the phrases "gas the Jews" and "Sieg Heil". Meechan was found guilty because the video was "antisemitic and racist in nature" and was aggravated by religious prejudice.[80] Meechan said that the video was taken out of context and was a joke to annoy his girlfriend.[81]
(from Wiki)

... just the sort of world-leader the world needs then?

And yes, I know Wiki is open to correction, etc.. but read what he has said about "The Jewish Question"

... "Tommy's Statement - The Jewish Question

... dear God, I think I have to have a break...

Tommy Robinson should be out and leading the world



from Wiki...

growstuff

I agree with you Dickens, which is why I always remember that "democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

"democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

I've not heard that before, but it does neatly sum it up.

BlueBelle

Having seen Musks father on TV this morning I ve never seen a nastier more objectionable man with such horrendous views including thinking Tommy Robinson should be out and leading the world
Listening to him you could really see where Hitler emerged from

Never forget that his ancestors were the masters of apartheid.

He was born into that world.

I agree with you Dickens, which is why I always remember that "democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

Having seen Musks father on TV this morning I ve never seen a nastier more objectionable man with such horrendous views including thinking Tommy Robinson should be out and leading the world
Listening to him you could really see where Hitler emerged from

love0c

Monica I disagree. A lie is a lie. If a politician says one thing and does another then they did lie in the first place. The lie stands whatever way you vote.

Except that is not what happens. Everything one party says is described as a lie by another party. They then have a long argument about exactly what was said, how it was said, whether the meaning of the words is what each side says it is, and so on and so and so on.

The problem is that a lie isn't a lie, Yes or no, It can just be being 'economical with the truth' Saying one thing that isntrue but not its follow-up that shows thata in certain circumstances it isn't.

... and they will go along with this faction, or that faction, they will present themselves as 'men of the people', or stoke the divides, make promises to fix that or this concern of 'the people', promise "better times" ahead, concur with racists at the same time as denouncing them..

They will, these very rich people, do whatever it takes to remain in control, to hold the status quo.

And the reason they do it is because there is more of us than there is of them, and the only way to control a crowd bigger than your own is to cause dissent and make them fight among themselves.

It has always been this way and always will be.

There is no true Democracy.

Galaxy

I think you will find that it was democracy that led to Trumps victory, it is always awful when people wont vote the way you want them to isnt it.

Trump's spin and outright lies led to his Victory, not to mention that there are some who actually believe God chose him to lead America.

If that's your idea of democracy, it isn't mine.

it is always awful when people wont vote the way you want them to isnt it.

... and when people don't vote the "way you want them to" Mr Musk will be on hand to fan the flames.

Democracy gave us Starmer, Musk doesn't like that we did that - so much so that he's conducting a poll on whether the USA should "liberate" the UK.

There is no real democracy anywhere. The world is run by very rich people for very rich people, it's as simple as that.

love0c

Growstuff You are missing the point. It is because we have allowed party's to continually lie to us that they do. Are you saying then we can doing nothing about it? We just have to allow them to continue lying? They all need pulling up. Yes it is difficult but things have to change.

No, I'm not missing the point at all. I'm trying to discuss the concept of democracy without resorting to petty party politics, which is what you're doing.

KateW19

What is it that appeals to you about Nigel Farage? Is it that he seems approachable? Or is it specific pledges that you feel would improve yours or your family’s lives?

Same could be said of KS, looking back at all his interviews he’s gone back on everything he promised.

(I realise its a typo, but it's Wyllow please, there is also a willow with very different view from me that has confused people and people have attributed posts according to this).

Willow Good politicians do their best. Correct. Such a shame there are so few about!!!