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Democracy under threat

(235 Posts)
KateW19 Mon 06-Jan-25 20:22:23

Good to see Europe’s saner leaders and ministers uniting against the current baiting from across the pond. We can never underestimate the risk that we could lose our democracy and hard won freedoms. We came close in 1944, and the thought of my children losing the protections we have leaves me cold. From the Guardian earlier: “ A German government spokesperson did mention Musk by name, insisting his influence on voters was limited. “Normal people, sensible people, decent people are in a big majority in this country,” the spokesperson told a regular press conference in Berlin.

“We act as if Mr Musk’s Twitter statements could influence a country of 84 million people with untruths or half-truths or expressions of opinion,” the spokesperson added. “This is simply not the case.” Nevertheless the far right have 5 years to drag us into their gutter and no doubt they will do their utmost to unravel the world as we know it.

David49 Wed 15-Jan-25 19:04:10

MaizieD

Are you implying some sort of preferential treatment for Labour voters there, David?. The message before the budget was that working people wouldn't be taxed (implication being no rise in income tax). Middle class 'high earners' are still 'working people'. I know it was a silly and nebulous phrase, but that 'promise' was kept.

What was surprising/disappointing was that there were a number of ways the acquisition of more undue wealth could have been taxed but wasn't, and also excessive corporate profits (e.g. the energy companies) weren't touched.

I tend to think that on the whole most voters care less about the demographics of the party than they do about what they think the party will do for them. What about all the 'working classes' who have continually voted tory?

All polititians favour their own voters, Reeves took money off Pensioners, Private School parents, Business owners and Farmers, all less likely to vote Labour.

There are many ways that high earners could be taxed other than income tax.

I didnt realize that the Labour vote had changed so much

Doodledog Wed 15-Jan-25 18:09:58

The working class Tory was the subject of many Sociology exam questions when I took an A level in it in the 70s. Alf Garnett is a good example, for those who remember him. Deferential, prepared to believe that 'toffs' know better than he and his family do, and not prepared to shift his position at all.

As for the Labour middle class vote - much of that depends on definition of class. The industrial working class no longer exists, but there is a whole group of people whose working conditions are no better, and who may see themselves as middle class as they work in offices, shops or call centres and get paid monthly, but their 'relation to the means of production' is no greater than their parents or grandparents who worked in mines, mills and factories. These people tend to be floating voters in 'Red Wall' constituencies.

Because of (largely Labour) policies, the position of many workers has changed, however, so of course their voting base has changed with it. Not everyone votes purely out of self-interest, and a lot of people who realise that their situation is as it is because of progressive policies and want to see others get the same advantage. They are more likely to be LP members I think.

MaizieD Wed 15-Jan-25 17:58:08

Are you implying some sort of preferential treatment for Labour voters there, David?. The message before the budget was that working people wouldn't be taxed (implication being no rise in income tax). Middle class 'high earners' are still 'working people'. I know it was a silly and nebulous phrase, but that 'promise' was kept.

What was surprising/disappointing was that there were a number of ways the acquisition of more undue wealth could have been taxed but wasn't, and also excessive corporate profits (e.g. the energy companies) weren't touched.

I tend to think that on the whole most voters care less about the demographics of the party than they do about what they think the party will do for them. What about all the 'working classes' who have continually voted tory?

David49 Wed 15-Jan-25 16:38:54

M0nica

Oh yes, as in most things there will be variation from place to place, but it doesn't hide the main picture that Labour is now the party of the educated middle classes.

Those sociodemographic and income groups that Labour could almost guarantee to vote for them in the past - Social groups D2DE and those on low incomes, are the people now most likely to be moving to support Reform. yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49978-how-britain-voted-in-the-2024-general-election

I was surprised when the budget did not tax the high earning middle class more, it appears that a large proportion of them are Labour voters these days and practically all of their MPs are not working class despite their claim to “roots”.

M0nica Sun 12-Jan-25 22:31:03

Oh yes, as in most things there will be variation from place to place, but it doesn't hide the main picture that Labour is now the party of the educated middle classes.

Those sociodemographic and income groups that Labour could almost guarantee to vote for them in the past - Social groups D2DE and those on low incomes, are the people now most likely to be moving to support Reform. yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49978-how-britain-voted-in-the-2024-general-election

Casdon Sun 12-Jan-25 22:12:45

I’m left thinking so what M0nica. What percentage of people now obtain a degree compared with the 1980s, surely that has a bearing on the change in voter profiles? Was 2019 typical of the Labour voting profile? I’d say no, because of the Corbyn effect. Many people who voted Labour because of him didn’t vote Labour in 2024, but others did. The YouGov voter profile for 2024 by educational attainment is here.
yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49978-how-britain-voted-in-the-2024-general-election
It’s quite possible that local branches of the Labour Party have very mixed membership as Wyllow3 indicates.

M0nica Sun 12-Jan-25 21:14:35

Wyllow3* The statistics are against you.

If you scroll down through this link www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-political-science/article/new-dilemma-of-social-democracy-the-british-labour-party-the-white-working-class-and-ethnic-minority-representation/626714D1D61DB6BE58311C2B781FC00C until you reach the first bar chart, it shows that in 1987 while the white working class accounted for 38% of the electorate, it formed 52% of the Labour vote. By 2019 these figures had fallen to 24% and 18%.

Meanwhile the proportion of votes that Labour gets from white university graduates has risen from 10% to 38%. The other growth group has been among ethnic minorities where Labour now gets 20%. A significant proportion of these will also have degrees, so Labour now gets about half its votes from university graduates, while the white working class accounts for less than 20%.

The Labour party is the party of the ducated middle classes and this is echoed in its MPs. None of which have a working class background. Look at this link researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf. It shows that 75% of Labour MPs were already inthe politics profession before they became MPs; party officials, working for think tanks, union officials. Almost without exception all Labour MPs come from white collar careers.

David49 Sun 12-Jan-25 11:16:34

nanna8

Labour certainly seems to have changed its demographics. Same over here with our Labor party. A shame because now you don’t know what you are getting or exactly who they stand for. I guess I was a ‘rusted on’ voter but certainly not anymore. I change all the time now, even been known to vote for the greenies ( only once !)

It was a combination, there are always floating voters, Reform took a lot of Tory votes away, a lot voted LD where there was a prospect of a win. Other small parties didn’t do well, uniting to get Tories out was the priority and it went rather over the top

nanna8 Sat 11-Jan-25 22:06:06

Labour certainly seems to have changed its demographics. Same over here with our Labor party. A shame because now you don’t know what you are getting or exactly who they stand for. I guess I was a ‘rusted on’ voter but certainly not anymore. I change all the time now, even been known to vote for the greenies ( only once !)

Wyllow3 Sat 11-Jan-25 21:58:41

No Boz I've been a member for over 30 years and in my Northern constituency there is a real mix. How long have you been a member to know?

Boz Sat 11-Jan-25 18:50:03

Excuse me! Labour is the Party of middle-class intellectuals not particularly the middle-class business or commercial wallahs!

Dickens Sat 11-Jan-25 18:44:24

David49

The people I know who voted leave were across the social profile but right leaning, their logic was migration/xenophobia and sovereignty.
They did not consider the practical or economic consequences, of leaving.

They did not consider the practical or economic consequences, of leaving.

I don't think that's quite true.

Prior to the Referendum, I was quite active across social media sites and debated with those who had quite clearly considered the economic impact.

As a Remain voter myself, I cyber-chatted to a Leave voter who ran a small business and who took the long-term, Jacob Rees-Mogg, view of the benefits (and drawbacks) of Brexit. In fact, we became 'Facebook Friends' (we had other interests in common) and had quite a few civilised discussions on the whole subject of our membership of the EU.

What I did notice was that those who were open to debate worth listening to - either Leave or Remain - were those who were not fanatics.

My 'Facebook friend' was not totally opposed to our being in the EU, in the same way that I could recognise its failings.

... in stark contrast to the (too many) posters who either used derogatory language to insult Leave voters (Brexshitters, thickos, etc), or the Leave voters who referred to Remainers as Remoaners, Losers, Traitors, etc.

I have no respect for such people, whichever side they were on, and no-one will convince me that I should listen to what they have to say.

My basic (simplistic) feeling is that when you join a club, within it, you lose some of your autonomy, otherwise it's a free-for-all and not a club

But if enough club members believe that some of the rules are disadvantageous, there's no reason not to question them.

But leaving the club altogether maybe isn't the best solution.

That was my position.

The tactics of the Leave campaign are another, separate, matter. As were the weaknesses of the Remain side.

Galaxy Sat 11-Jan-25 18:16:52

I agree again Terribull ( by the way just as an aside with regard to excitement about the proposals, you havent actually seen usgrin).
It is about class, the main problem for me is that the labour party has become the party of the middle class, and their concerns are very different to many other people. I work in a Northen 'red wall' town, my base is in one of the most deprived areas, their experience of immigration is completely different to my little middle class villages experience.
Mix this with identity politics ( and never any mention of class in there) and it is a disaster.

TerriBull Sat 11-Jan-25 18:07:49

Not really 25Avalon, I have no time for that right now, I've just calmed down my distraught grandson, bankrupt at the tender age of 10, well that's the world of Monoply for you. His opponent, my son tells me in his day, friends of his had the game banned in their house 'cos the board went flying and siblings got punched shock I am returning to the safe and relatively calm haven of GN where peace and goodwill is in abundance grin

25Avalon Sat 11-Jan-25 17:51:44

Another round of applause Terribull. Are you after even more marriage proposals?

TerriBull Sat 11-Jan-25 15:33:54

OMG, I've never received so many marriage proposals in one day, or even ever! I mean I've had proposals, but not always ones I'd entertain grin

Anyway, moving on from my murky past grin Yes! hands up I'm a distrustful cynic particularly relating to institutions, religious bodies, politics and governments, it's a long list. That trust was embedded a long time ago, when the lid was blown off the catholic church's shenanigans, brought up to believe that this massive hierarchy was a force for good and then discovering it encompassed all manner of evil behind that facade and something else I took from being raised a catholic, never under estimate the power of the patriarchy, in their many guises. I kind of just don't take anything much at face value. There's always an agenda just look at the The UN, WHO, Charities such as Help The Children, Oxfam, The fecking WEF, the list goes on, sinister, shadowy, murky, kickbacks, in the pockets of God know who, to me nothing is ever as transparent as it may seem. in a world full of lobbyists with vested interests. Yeah! so pretty much posters like Galaxy and Oreo, "you are my people" but that doesn't mean I don't listen to the points of view expressed by others. . No one has ever nailed the argument for the rights of natal women better than Doodledog, no one presents the background of the girl grooming horrors with more compassion and understanding than Iam.

Going back to the OP though, the assumption made by her, along the lines of "most of the electorate have the understanding of a 9 year old". With what was almost likely to have been an American pov, presumably because "they" the lumpen ones didn't vote Democrat. A rationale that is born out universally in the western world by those who no longer see the left wing as their saviours and all of the evils of the world are encompassed in the so called far right. Far right of course extends to anybody slightly right of centre, so if you are a critic of the way the whole "grooming" debacle was handled, or you feel that justice wasn't really served in that connection, or you are a critic of the way this government has handled pretty much anything, now by extension those become members of the "far right"

Going back to the US, and her supposition that the Christian Far Right hold the sway in some states I don't doubt that, but where's the balance, perhaps the OP has never read Demon Copperhead or watched the excellent "Dopesick" So lets just wonder why swathes of that demographic were to be labelled as "The basket of deplorables" by the magnanimous Hillary Clinton, those who couldn't bring themselves to vote for her and voted instead for Trump. Maybe they were the West Virginians targeted in poor mining areas where minor injuries by nature of their work were prevalent. Into there lives came Purdue Pharmaceuticals who pushed their highly addictive prescriptions for Oxycontin which lead to tens of thousands of premature deaths, hundreds of thousands of addicts, lives ruined in the poorest of communities. The company was
found guilty of misleading the public about the dangers of the drug, no one was really held to account.

We have something similar over here just mention the word "Brexit" and we have an almost automaton response "too thick not to realise what was written on the side of the bus were lies" that's the narrative, by the way did anyone read Petra's thoughts on the matter up thread. I did vote remain, with reservations. I think the way free movement was rolled out here like a Tsunami impacted on communities who had to absorb a disproportionate amount of people into their towns almost overnight and that put immense strain on their infrastructure, why wasn't it phased in gradually as it was in France and Germany for example? ffs! did the government really believe only 13,000 would come, where did they pluck that figure out of the air from anyway. Blair I believe has said "with hindsight we'd have done it differently" we don't need hindsight from our politicians we need foresight and a bit of honesty wouldn't go amiss either. Of course it was good for industry, back unanimously by the CBI and whilst I don't doubt we need immigration in some areas and I don't underestimate those benefits, particularly in the NHS, At the same time though it has to be balanced, some saw their livelihoods shrivel, wages stagnated because of an over supply of labour, read the Grapes of Wrath to see the ruinous effects of too many vying for the same work, eventually what they earned was reduced to subsistence levels, extreme circumstances nearly a 100 years ago, but we don't always learn from history. An oversupply of workers is a mandate for companies to underpay their workforce. Salaries in many corporations are still lower than they should be, coupled with umpteen more people arriving here, concentrated in certain areas, where the shortage of housing is now critical. As Petra commented up- thread people often voted as to how they were personally affected. I don't suppose for one moment there is going to be much of a meeting of minds between those who weathered the full force of the impact of overnight immigration in say Boston, Lincs and Richmond on Thames near where I lived for nearly 4 decades, where they resoundly voted to remain, an enclave of haves if ever there was one.

Honestly, I think the propensity to label great swathes of the population as thick or having a stunted mentality has become the new class war, it probably never went away. It's a tacit "I'm educated and can see the bigger picture, You can't because you're not only under educated but have the mentality of a 9 year old, you shouldn't really have the vote, even if I do believe in a more equal world, just as long as it's my vision of what that world should be"

Oreo Sat 11-Jan-25 09:59:15

Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of distrust/ cynicism in fact I’d say it’s necessary to get through life.

Galaxy Sat 11-Jan-25 08:32:10

No I dont think everyone is blinkered doodledog, I would say the last few years mean I dont trust institutions in any way, I am aware that is possibly dangerous, but i dont see what else people are supposed to do when said institutions appear to have lost their mind. Of course people are going to look elsewhere for information, news, etc. It is almost impossible for me to trust narratives around for example misinformation, misogyny, etc when there has been no or very little challenging of misinformation etc from the mainstream.

David49 Sat 11-Jan-25 07:51:22

The problem is that those with extreme views, Farage is a good example, gets media attention far exceeding his importance which invites others to speak out in support. Tommy Robinson not so much because his views promote violence which negate his opinions.
Johnson and the Brexit campaign, a flamboyant character promoting a new future, never mind it being based on dreams, inspired many to vote for him. The remain campaign with “more of the same” just was not newsworthy.
Trump, always in the news for his court appearances or extreme pronouncements in the end it got him elected, he’s a crook for sure but the obviously biased legal campaign against him probably gained more votes than it lost.

Thats democracy wether you agree depends in which side you support.

nanna8 Sat 11-Jan-25 00:57:03

To get back to the OP, I think democracy is actually under threat and has been for some time. Quite insidious and quite subtle but the undermining of freedoms is there in both your country and mine. Throwing around unpleasant accusations of hard right, racist, extreme left, communist etc is part of the problem , just trying to shut people up and stop them from speaking.

Oreo Fri 10-Jan-25 22:23:23

Galaxy

I may want to marry you Terribullgrin

I want to have her babies😁

Doodledog Fri 10-Jan-25 22:14:24

I agree to a point, Terribull. I don’t like the ‘they are all stupid’ narrative either. But sorry, Galaxy - it’s nothing personal I promise - that is exactly what I’m seeing from you.

Many people other than you can see things from more than one perspective. I know I try to - even if only because it is vital to see the other ‘side’ if I am to argue against it effectively 😀. Sometimes that does temper my own views, and sometimes it doesn’t, but I do recognise that we all have opinions and they don’t have to be the same.

I may be misjudging your posts, but it’s coming across as though you think everyone else (except maybe Terribull wink) is blinkered.

Allira Fri 10-Jan-25 22:08:36

Galaxy

I may want to marry you Terribullgrin

😁
Sorry, she's spoken for!

25Avalon Fri 10-Jan-25 22:06:22

Hear hear Terribull very well put.

Galaxy Fri 10-Jan-25 21:35:40

I may want to marry you Terribullgrin