Shocking news this morning. On the tv and in the papers.

Iam64

David by 1960’s high school, are you meaning Secondary Modern? Of course no pupil in one of those establishments was expected or encouraged to reach for the stars.
The bright boys did tech drawing, the bright girls secretarial college.
We were lucky, we had night school in FE colleges where we could take A levels as a pathway to the university we were denied

A High School was a Grammar School

I went to a Girls' High School.
Several girls who did achieve good results at the High School went on to FE College as university was only for the better-off, middle class students. Teacher Training College was what was expected of us by the school.
We were not encouraged to reach for the stars.

We were all supposed to become teachers and anyone who didn't want to do that was written off.

How different it all was just a few years later!

FE colleges were places that really did offer opportunity to those who were failed by the school system.

It's such a shame that the sector is now so starved of cash. As well as giving people a second chance, they 'trained people up' on day release, and offered evening classes in everything from O and A levels to dressmaking and conversational languages.

I suppose it varies from one area, one school, to another. Difficult to generalise. My son attended a comprehensive, was happy there and achieved better grades than I did because of that.

I often see posts here claiming grammar schools are so much better than comprehensives. Elitist and untrue. Good schools should be available for all, children should never be told they’re ‘failures’ at 11

I wondered about that Iam. I went to the local high school, which was grammar school (all girls). The expectation was that pupils would go to university, except those who studied DS. They really were regarded as having only just scraped in. The headmistress was a terrible snob, ghastly woman, and most of the teachers were Oxbridge graduates. Not a happy place.

David by 1960’s high school, are you meaning Secondary Modern? Of course no pupil in one of those establishments was expected or encouraged to reach for the stars.
The bright boys did tech drawing, the bright girls secretarial college.
We were lucky, we had night school in FE colleges where we could take A levels as a pathway to the university we were denied

Barleyfields

What might those professions be, David? In my experience a profession requires capacity for independent thought. Maybe we have different definitions of a profession as opposed to a job?

I would agree with that analysis. A true profession has professional standards regulated by a professional body, which in theory should override the rules of an organisation. I doubt that this applies to many roles nowadays, but even so, professions are different from jobs. A supermarket manager is not in a professional role.

I once saw a study somewhere (sorry, it was a long time ago, can't remember where) that said that if all the illegal immigrants were evicted from New York almost all restaurants and hotels would end up closing down.

I assume though that means the ones used by ordinary people, not the ones used by the super-rich who don't care what they pay.

What might those professions be, David? In my experience a profession requires capacity for independent thought. Maybe we have different definitions of a profession as opposed to a job?

Many 'managers' are basically supervisors with additional admin tasks such as approving leave requests and recording sickness absence.

Yes, supermarkets are a good example, Head Office tell you how to manage every detail, no freedom of action you’re only there to make sure staff obey the rules. You have the worst of both worlds and give 100% to the boss and 100% to the staff.

Many professions have very little freedom of action, just the required routing.

David49 If you read my post, I wasn't talking about education in the skills needed for doing a specific job. I was advocating what is probably called Life Skills. There are many people around, whether doing work where they are "happy to have less responsibility and follow instructions." or whether they have more responsibility and have to give instructions to others, who seem unable to think beyond tonight's meal, and can't work out logically what the outcome is likely to be tomorrow, or in the predictable future, of something making headlines today. They can be found in the pub or the supermarket, on the bus, at work, among friends, on social media, and even on Gransnet.

Claremont

Allira

NonGrannyMoll

Ah, Claremont, "spaffing" is a new word on me. I love it.

No, it's horrible.

Just because Boris used it is no reason for us to copy him.

sarcasm is sometimes apt in extreme circumstances. I used it with full knowledge, and with BJ in mind.

And I did add this in another post:

Yes, I think Claremont used it as a quote, not her own words.

It makes me want to 🤮!

Allira

NonGrannyMoll

Ah, Claremont, "spaffing" is a new word on me. I love it.

No, it's horrible.

Just because Boris used it is no reason for us to copy him.

sarcasm is sometimes apt in extreme circumstances. I used it with full knowledge, and with BJ in mind.

Many 'managers' are basically supervisors with additional admin tasks such as approving leave requests and recording sickness absence. Even requests made by staff in appraisals need to be signed off at a higher level.

Actual decisions about policies and procedures are taken much further up the chain, so 'manager' is more of a courtesy title in a lot of cases, particularly in large organisations.

Obviously this varies depending on the company and number of employees, but certainly in the public sector it is the case. In education in particular, promotion is often based on things like subject expertise/publications etc rather than on people skills and management ability. I have known some comically inept managers in my time, although it's not always comical for the people they manage.

We do seem to have drifted from the thread topic though

Citizens are advised to carry their passports at all times
What is going to happen to the 52% who don’t have passports?

David I once had a totally useless manager - she was apparently great as a practitioner/key worker but promoted above her skills.

Elegran

But what of people who don't want to rise up to be managers and executives, just to do a job which they are good at and enjoy, while someone else does the things they are not good at, like managing others and being an executive?

They need to have good education too, including in such uncommercial things as music and art, and how the government of our country is organised, how our judicial service works, and how the money is raised to pay for the services provided for its inhabitants. Plus a little about the ways in which "influencers" and propagandists can skew facts and how to search for the source of information and assess the likely level of its accuracy.

If everyone knew more about such things, and were able to sift truth from lies, they would be less likely to swallow whole the spin put on the news by media moguls out to profit to the maximum by public gullibility.

Everyone in the UK has the education that enables the to do an “ordinary” job, if it requires a skill level, on job training can provide that, as an apprenticeship should do. Managing others effectively is not a job many want to do, they are they are happy to have less responsibility and follow instructions.

Some of the people I know in childrens services would be terrible managers but are excellent practioners. We need to value those skills as well, in my experience some managers (and I was a manager for a long time) do not have the skills necessary to be frontline workers. We need to treat people at all levels with decency and ensure that they are rewarded for their particular skills

But what of people who don't want to rise up to be managers and executives, just to do a job which they are good at and enjoy, while someone else does the things they are not good at, like managing others and being an executive?

They need to have good education too, including in such uncommercial things as music and art, and how the government of our country is organised, how our judicial service works, and how the money is raised to pay for the services provided for its inhabitants. Plus a little about the ways in which "influencers" and propagandists can skew facts and how to search for the source of information and assess the likely level of its accuracy.

If everyone knew more about such things, and were able to sift truth from lies, they would be less likely to swallow whole the spin put on the news by media moguls out to profit to the maximum by public gullibility.

Elegran

We can't all excell and be outstanding - many of us are the bedrock on which the outstanding stand, with their sponsors supporting them. Those who don't excel but are just mediumish and hardworking need a chance to get on in the world too. A country where only those whose heads (and wealth) are near the ceiling are thought to be an asset to the economy is a country where those at the bottom of the pyramid getting nothing are disheartened at being crushed, so they are likely to rebel and cause the whole structure and hierarchy to collapse.

Expectations, I am the product of a state high school in the 1960s, Im sure many of you are the same, our expectation we’re not raised, none of my schoolmates went to University. We ALL got jobs in whatever career we chose, the smart ones went to technical college and qualified on the job for promotion, there was no glass ceiling. Today the expectations are raised far to high, then students get disenchanted because the aimed too high and failed.

A cousin of mine a Farm Workers son joined an insurance company from school, worked his way up and became Chief Executive, receiving Freedom of the City of London

No, not everyone can excel but with commitment you can rise through the ranks to become managers and executives, even if you begin at the bottom.

I agree with that, it is one of the reasons I dislike the way class is so frequently ignored in discussions of oppression.

We can't all excell and be outstanding - many of us are the bedrock on which the outstanding stand, with their sponsors supporting them. Those who don't excel but are just mediumish and hardworking need a chance to get on in the world too. A country where only those whose heads (and wealth) are near the ceiling are thought to be an asset to the economy is a country where those at the bottom of the pyramid getting nothing are disheartened at being crushed, so they are likely to rebel and cause the whole structure and hierarchy to collapse.

Racisms well ingrained in the UK, there are plenty that don’t get on the ladder here. In the US anyone who excels in whatever field can get sponsored, my wife’s nieces both have Black /Hispanic boyfriends everyone seems to be much more relaxed about it.

I do like visiting the US but wouldn’t want to live there, politics is so divisive and finding decent food to eat is a challenge

Racism exists in the US and it is much more ingrained than in the UK. Slavery, the civil war and segregation has left it's mark. Is the US a meritocracy? To some extent it is but there is still a large percentage of people who never get on the ladder, let alone manage to climb it. What poor blacks and poor whites have in common is a very poor chance of joining the race, that's why the executive order by Trump to stop diversity programmes is so destructive. I am not surprised that the KKK is raising it's head in the South, it's never gone away.

LizzieDrip

^Go in any city here and see first hand the problem, you wont hang around long, then make your judgement^

What do mean Allsorts? I don’t follow your thinking

I’m not sure who is US based or UK, having been to the US recently, there are plenty of junkies and dossiers on the streets and there are city areas where you would not want to go at night, just like cities in the UK.

Racism exists of course from what I’ve seen it is less than the UK, the gulf is between the high and low income groups wether you are white, black or brown, for them life is tough as it is here.
One plus for the US birth right gets you nowhere you get promotion on merit