Southport stabbings - sentencing

nightowl

eazybee

The agencies who are supposed to be the experts weere woefully ineffective, in not assessing his real needs and arranging for more appropriate sanctions. Easy to say
"can’t lock up all young people who express violent thoughts, nor can we section them unless they are considered to have a mental disorder (or need assessment). Psychiatric hospitals are not there to contain all people who may commit a serious crime."

And the result:
3 children slaughtered brutally and eight others injured and scarred fpr life.

So what do you suggest should have happened eazybee?

I hope you don’t think I’m at all complacent about what happened. But throwing up our hands and saying something should have been done won’t change it - we need to know what could have been done, and that’s why we have inquiries.

Wise answer.

It will still come down to the fact that people are only sectioned if they are considered an immediate danger to themselves or others.

And that means that people who are judged to be close to this criteria are must be known, and under very watchful eyes, and have a very high degree of proof from his words or actions he was an immediate threat.

This young man we now know was obsessed with violent fantasies and intent, but the degree of that wasn't known until the house was searched and his online activity scrutinised. which the police couldn't do unless a crime had been committed.

Its clear that resources that used to be used for Prevent as in brought in at a time of terrorist cells should be better used now to look at the 'lone wolf" phenomena,

and its clear that a close look at what led this young man to do what he did could be very valuable in identifying people at risk,

and a close look at failure of communication and the means of closing the gaps are needed.

But I dont think we can ever totally prevent this kind of phenomena.

It appears that one of the rumours which musk made famous around the rape gangs and that the home office had said 'lifestyle choice' originated from an interview with Nazir Afal - it was dug out by BBC verify of all things. Nick Lowles had to apologise for a tweet claiming there had been an acid attack against a muslim woman ( I think it was a woman I cant remember the details now) in Middlesborough - that was during the time of the riots.

I don’t want to derail the thread but it occurred to me that this youth (I find it difficult to know what to call him) obviously had use of a credit/debit card if he bought online not only a knife but the ingredients for the ricin he made. I haven’t read anything about him having a job so unless I have missed that, he must have been either receiving benefits or money from his parents. Or might he have access to his mother’s or father’s cards? If the latter, I wonder how the ricin ingredients purchase would show up on a statement?

Galaxy what false rumours have been started by Nazir Afzal and Hope Not Hate?

Well said nightowl. We don’t yet have enough information to speculate on what might have been done, nor will we until the inquiry is held. I wonder how long that will take, and how long we will have to wait for any recommended changes in law or practice to be put in place.

Actually Jane in terms of the online behaviour some of those who had access to proper advice and who pled not guilty were found not guilty, many would have been wise to fight those convictions. If we start arresting those who start false rumours then we would need to arrest Nazir afzal, hope not hate, etc. But of course we dont because some misinformation (the middle class sort) is ok.

mum2three

I hope the prison wardens suddenly develop a hearing problem when he's torn apart by other prisoners.

So what does that make you? Is your lust for his death any different to his for others.

The law is the only thing that keeps us vaguely civilised.

eazybee

The agencies who are supposed to be the experts weere woefully ineffective, in not assessing his real needs and arranging for more appropriate sanctions. Easy to say
"can’t lock up all young people who express violent thoughts, nor can we section them unless they are considered to have a mental disorder (or need assessment). Psychiatric hospitals are not there to contain all people who may commit a serious crime."

And the result:
3 children slaughtered brutally and eight others injured and scarred fpr life.

So what do you suggest should have happened eazybee?

I hope you don’t think I’m at all complacent about what happened. But throwing up our hands and saying something should have been done won’t change it - we need to know what could have been done, and that’s why we have inquiries.

Barleyfields

FriedGreenTomatoes2

We have to agree to disagree then Barleyfields. A knife is a knife.

Every single Southport hostage in jail throughout the country for posting hurty words should be released and pardoned immediately and recieve a public apology from the Prime Minister, in my opinion.

I can’t believe I read that. You not only support Trump, you sound exactly like him.

If you venture onto X will find numerous posts expressing the same, references to ‘Patriots, hurty words, political prisoners’. The reality is these people plead guilty to incitement of civil disorder and racist comments, some of the content is disgusting, particularly the woman who was a child minder who claimed she was going to play the mental health card after she was arrested. The facts are Andrew Tate claimed the boy was a recently arrived asylum seeker, he even gave a made up name, this was spread on social media aided by Farage. This brought out all the Tommy Robinson supporters with an excuse for violence, looting and arson. The genuine people who were angered by what happened in Southport stayed home they didn’t go out to riot and steal sausage rolls from Gregg’s or cheap plastic shoes from Shoe Zone.

The agencies who are supposed to be the experts weere woefully ineffective, in not assessing his real needs and arranging for more appropriate sanctions. Easy to say
"can’t lock up all young people who express violent thoughts, nor can we section them unless they are considered to have a mental disorder (or need assessment). Psychiatric hospitals are not there to contain all people who may commit a serious crime."

And the result:
3 children slaughtered brutally and eight others injured and scarred fpr life.

Agree. His attempts to play the Mental Health card have failed - he is just pure evil. But he'll be no match for the Welcome Committee, whichever prison facility he's sent to.

Yes I also agree FGT, whilst I'm glad the sentence in this case is really long, taking him up to old age and hopefully beyond. I hate the lynch mob mentality.

Iam64

Things were done but ineffectively is my impression. The public inquiry is essential and should inform good practice in the future.
Until he went off the rails at 13-14, year 9 there don’t appear to have been red flag issues. It’s easy to start blaming his parents and various agencies but it’s necessary to have a clearer picture.

We know of 5 calls to police by his parents. If he hadn’t committed a chargeable offence, once matters had stabilised its likely police passed concerns and requests for intervention to appropriate agencies. This seems to be a key issue with him not fitting criteria for those agencies. I don’t label this passing the buck, it’s a real problem with violent, unstable adolescents up to 18. I could speculate about various reasons but that won’t answer the questions we all have.

Iam I completely agree. We can’t lock up all young people who express violent thoughts, nor can we section them unless they are considered to have a mental disorder (or need assessment). Psychiatric hospitals are not there to contain all people who may commit a serious crime. Outside of that, it is a basic tenet of justice that people can only be tried for things they have done, not things they might do.

As for capital punishment, he was under 18 when he committed these acts and would never have faced the death penalty. However horrific his crimes, and whatever one’s views on capital punishment, I for one would not wish to live in a society where children could be executed.

Indigo8

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I hate to say it, but there are a number of people here who seem to condone prisoner on prisoner attacks. All violent acts are wrong whether in prison or in the outside world, and the perpetrators should be punished. Lynch mobs or the equivalent are not the answer.

I absolutely agree with you FGT.

I agree 👏👏👏

I hope that his appalling inhuman actions are not attributed to his autism (or as it is now known by neurodivergence)

Neurodivergent individuals have a hard enough time living in a neurotypical society as it is, they do not need another stick to beat them with

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I hate to say it, but there are a number of people here who seem to condone prisoner on prisoner attacks. All violent acts are wrong whether in prison or in the outside world, and the perpetrators should be punished. Lynch mobs or the equivalent are not the answer.

I absolutely agree with you FGT.

Grandma70s

mum2three

I hope the prison wardens suddenly develop a hearing problem when he's torn apart by other prisoners.

I always find it astonishing when people condemning someone for violent acts then express approval for violent acts.

Me too Grandma70s

People are not normally sent to jail for just saying or tweeting things in civilised countries.

The Southport rioters deserved everything they got! Their behaviour was racist, inhumane and appalling.

Things were done but ineffectively is my impression. The public inquiry is essential and should inform good practice in the future.
Until he went off the rails at 13-14, year 9 there don’t appear to have been red flag issues. It’s easy to start blaming his parents and various agencies but it’s necessary to have a clearer picture.

We know of 5 calls to police by his parents. If he hadn’t committed a chargeable offence, once matters had stabilised its likely police passed concerns and requests for intervention to appropriate agencies. This seems to be a key issue with him not fitting criteria for those agencies. I don’t label this passing the buck, it’s a real problem with violent, unstable adolescents up to 18. I could speculate about various reasons but that won’t answer the questions we all have.

woodenspoon

I think he is cunning and knows only too well what he has done. He deliberately disrupted the court today to avoid facing the families and hearing his sentence. The police said he had a long standing fascination with violence and killing. There is no way his parents didn’t know what he was like. He might be autistic but many kids are who don’t do what he has done. Evil and cunning, calculating. I hope he suffers immensely for the rest of his miserable life.

Of course his parents knew...thats why they called police out many times ....but nothing was ever done

Babs03

He sounds like a seriously disturbed individual who was on the radar long before this attack. The parents had called the police and sought help when their son’s violent/bad behaviour escalated as any parent would but nothing was done.
Angry young men who carry knives and behave erratically should be dealt with swiftly by the authorities. My take on this is that he should have been sectioned long before this tragic attack but am not sure if you can section someone under 18, if not the law on this needs to be changed so that this won’t happen again.

It’s all a mess isn’t it? Once police were told he was autistic by the parents , who incidentally I feel very sorry for, as I can imagine their life with this disturbed son, they wouldn’t be all that interested as they would think SS should be involved rather than themselves.They won’t do anything unless a crime has been committed, and once it has it’s too late!
As a country we should be better than this.

I'm quite shocked too. I'm wondering if FGT is ok.

correct typo "on the subject of releasing information".

Sago I’m sure we all know of one poster who has changed her name.