Letby didn't murder babies new experts claim.

Sorry *decided is decoded

From what I've read there were coded diary entries that were decided by police/prosecution to aid their case. Mostly there seemed to be scribbled notes on pieces of paper.
There were notes stating she was innocent too but these appeared not to have been used, or not highlighted as much either in court or the media. The notes could have been the result of counselling she was undergoing - l don't think this was considered in court, and only in the media after the verdict.
I don't know if she is guilty or not but l think she was hugely let down by her defence and with the experts' evidence that all the babies could have died of natural causes, it appears the police and prosecution might have (inadvertently) used circumstantial evidence to fit crimes that hadn't actually happened.

I honestly have no idea whether she did or didn’t, and really can’t understand people saying she definitely did, as our information comes mostly from unconfirmable sources. One example often given is diary entries. Were they from an actual diary, or random scribbles? People still quote them as ‘confessions’.
Having served on three juries, I remember being amazed at the attitudes of some of my fellow jurors, who seemed either not to have listened to or understood the evidence, or had immediately decided, ‘ he must have done it or he wouldn’t be here’.
I know everyone reacts differently to situations, but I simply cannot imagine myself being so calm, both when being arrested and in court. That’s the only thing which makes me tend to think she may be guilty. Then again……

It's time to take the focus off her and look at all the other things that were going on in that department and the new evidence on babies' conditions.
Any normal person would be extremely stressed and distressed under Letby's circumstances.

Surely the defence had a psyche evaluation in the original trial?

Skydancer

Lathyrus3

Just wondering .Magenta how you feel in this case about diary entries such as “I killed them. I did it on purpose.” and ‘I am evil. I don’t deserve to live” amongst other comments that co-incided with babies’ deaths.

I think these would have been crucial to a jury decision. Not all of her diary comments have been released. It must have been harrowing for the jury to have to read through them.

Even if some medical evidence is in question as to whether she did murder those babies, she thought and wrote about planning and causing the deaths of babies many times. And then babies died.

I am in favour of a re-trial with all the evidence made public, including the full diary entries, in order to call a halt to this constant publicity.

I agree. Why would any sane person write this sort of thing.

This may help you understand.

uk.news.yahoo.com/lucy-letby-hadwritten-notes-conviction-092658288.html

The poor girl was out of her mind with stress and guilt. If you haven't already I urge you to look at the new evidence out together by the absolute experts in the field and who have no axe to grind.

Lathyrus3

Just wondering .Magenta how you feel in this case about diary entries such as “I killed them. I did it on purpose.” and ‘I am evil. I don’t deserve to live” amongst other comments that co-incided with babies’ deaths.

I think these would have been crucial to a jury decision. Not all of her diary comments have been released. It must have been harrowing for the jury to have to read through them.

Even if some medical evidence is in question as to whether she did murder those babies, she thought and wrote about planning and causing the deaths of babies many times. And then babies died.

I am in favour of a re-trial with all the evidence made public, including the full diary entries, in order to call a halt to this constant publicity.

I agree. Why would any sane person write this sort of thing.

Sensible post Lathyrus3

What came out at the trial was his very difficult it was to get any of the higher ups to acknowledge that something untoward was happening in the unit..

Doctors were made to apologise to her for raising concerns. A number of collapses happened when the other member of staff on duty left for a break. Two members of staff obviously isn’t enough to cover breaks. That was down to the high ups too.

I know from my own experience how hard it is to get those higher up to take responsibility for their poor decisions and how they will do almost anything rather than face the consequences of decisions they have made.

Obviously things weren’t right in the management of the unit but that doesn’t negate other evidence.

So there were 18 deaths in 18 months surely someone higher than Letby must have noticed the number was going up hugely None of this makes sense to me I ve no idea really whether she did or didn’t have any hand in these babies deaths I can only think how awful if she didn’t
A man has just come out after 28 years for a crime he didn’t commit but to think now no one would ever believe she isn’t guilty now even if she isn’t
It’s never felt very safe to me !
If she did kill those babies then she was left on her own and to her own devices far too much and if she didn’t (which I tend to feel more) then it’s a horrendous situation for her, her family, and the babies families

Because evidence is circumstantial doesn’t mean it is invalid. It has to be weighed along with other evidence.

Hmm. Until the 4 years before Letby joined the unit there had been between 1 and 3 deaths per year. In the 18months that she worked in the unit there were 18 deaths.

No other significant changes in the unit were identified in that period. And no other staff were consistently on duty when the babies collapsed other than Letby.

The conflicting medical evidence of experts is only one factor the jury would have had to take into account.

I am in favour of an appeal.

@Chocolatelovinggran, the evidence is still circumstantial. At this point, there many extremely premature, critically ill babies in the unit. Sadly, it is inevitable that many of these poor little babies will not survive in these circumstances even with the very best care. In a situation like this, where there was significant understaffing, the outcome was, tragically, inevitable. The hospital has since been downgraded so that it is now unable to take such cases. Whatever the truth behind it all, the hospital was seriously and dangerously at fault in far too many areas and heads should have rolled at the top.

The unit was understaffed when Ms Letby arrived. The unprecedented peak in infant deaths occurred soon after her appointment.

Little prem babies here have one on one care from the nursing staff. They need it because they frequently have breathing and heart issues. Our grandchild is a 27 weeker who weighed 1 kg at birth. She had to be revived many,many times. She is now a very bright uni student,thanks to the wonderful care she received the . 24/7 . I think they need to come up with the goods there if babies are losing their lives because of lack of staff. It is not good enough. Lucy Letby might just have been a scapegoat, I don’t know.

Eloethan

Aveline No, I am not saying that. I am saying that the jury had access to much more peripheral information than the experts who are questioning the verdict.
I don't think our legal system is perfect. If experts are commissioned on one "side" or other, there may be a concern that, maybe subconsciously, they look particularly at the information which supports the side they are employed by. I am no expert but I believe the French system operates differently, in a more fact-finding, rather than adversarial, way.

The experts do not believe any of the babies were murdered. In every case they have identified an alternative cause of death. You seem to think this is to "raise their own professional profiles" which seems a very bizarre opinion, especially as you don't appear to have read their findings based on their many years of expertise.

Aveline No, I am not saying that. I am saying that the jury had access to much more peripheral information than the experts who are questioning the verdict.
I don't think our legal system is perfect. If experts are commissioned on one "side" or other, there may be a concern that, maybe subconsciously, they look particularly at the information which supports the side they are employed by. I am no expert but I believe the French system operates differently, in a more fact-finding, rather than adversarial, way.

So are you saying that she might as well be guilty because the poor jury has had a long time in court? Did you hear what the real experts had to say about the case?

Elothan 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I would be angrier as a jury member at not having been given the whole picture by the prosecutors or a full defence by the defence team.
Sounds like the whole hospital and unit were badly run and problem filled.

nanna8

As has been said earlier,if in fact she is innocent an awful lot of questions about the standard of care and other hospital staff needs to be looked at.

That neonatal unit was so short of Drs and consultants it was bordering on illegal to function.

Eloethan

Maybe I could be accused of being cynical, but in many murder cases there are people who see the verdict as an opportunity to raise their own professional profiles by querying the verdict. That is not to say that there are not terrible injustices which have come to light - the latest one being that of Peter Sullivan.

But jurors sat for, what must have been an arduous and distressing, 145 days listening to the evidence of 246 witnesses. That evidence included several hand-written notes of Letby, which aided her conviction.

theconversation.com/lucy-letby-case-the-problems-with-expert-evidence-249309

Eloethan 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Maybe I could be accused of being cynical, but in many murder cases there are people who see the verdict as an opportunity to raise their own professional profiles by querying the verdict. That is not to say that there are not terrible injustices which have come to light - the latest one being that of Peter Sullivan.

But jurors sat for, what must have been an arduous and distressing, 145 days listening to the evidence of 246 witnesses. That evidence included several hand-written notes of Letby, which aided her conviction.