Next step in overriding female rights!

These are quotes from Upton's evidence.....

Male and female bodies is a nebulous term that I do not recognise
Biological sex is a nebulous term that doesn't really mean anything
nobody can accurately or usefully define biological sex
There is no agreed definition of biological sex
Biological sex is a nebulous dog whistle

It is being rumoured that the disciplinary tribunal on Friday is to be delayed. It was originally scheduled for one week after they expected Sandie's employment tribunal to be finished. They are determined to punish her for Upton's hurt feelings, whatever the results of that are as they'd know there wouldn't have been a judgement returned within a week. They really are the vilest, most vindictive bunch aren't they?

You know the worst aspect of this? It's a gift to the conservative Right.

I cannot see how the worse aspect of this ridiculous case is a gift to the conservative right.

Dickens the delay until July is a combination of available diary dates for all the participants and the fact that NHSFife and Upton did not disclose all the documents and evidence they had been instructed to by an earlier judge. Some was produced during the hearing, but it came to light there was a lot more that hadn't. Sandie's KC needs these documents to be able to analyse them, and that will take time. She has also requested a forensic analysis of Upton's phone as there were multiple discrepancies/gaps in his evidence. I have read that people think it unlikely this will be granted but who knows?

I had to use the family changing room in the swimming pool last week. There was a man with his little girl. It did not bother me at all. However, I would feel very uncomfortable getting changed in front of a transgender man. I would leave. Say what you want about me, but that is how I feel!

Rosie51

Dickens from what I gathered following the Tribunal Tweets live reporting, there was no verbal exchange on those occasions. It offended and hurt him greatly that Sandie waited outside until he left the room.
The biggest mistake some women made was to accede to the use of wrong sex pronouns in order to be 'kind'. Given that inch some transwomen have opted to take the proverbial mile, time to row right back.

Rosie51

Thanks.

It offended and hurt him greatly that Sandie waited outside until he left the room.

It probably did - but isn't it her right to wait outside if she feels uncomfortable? Is that choice going to be removed from women now?

Upton believes there is no agreed definition of biological sex. When in fact, there is. The majority believe it's immutable, only a minority think it's something 'nebulous'.

It seems the majority are expected to discard science and biology in order to accommodate the internal feelings of a minority.

Since when did it become disrespectful to say, "I acknowledge your feelings, but I don't share them to the extent you want me to?"

You know the worst aspect of this? It's a gift to the conservative Right. Worse still, the transgender community blame women for the rise of 'anti' sentiment, instead of understanding they are making unreasonable demands on millions of biological women.

Women cannot force trans women to believe in the biological determination of sex - but neither can trans women force women to believe their gender-identity makes them women.

But, they are winning, aren't they with the help of organisations like the NHS Fife - unless there is more to this case than we are aware of?

... and why the delay until July?

She's facing a disciplinary tribunal this Friday. This is for 'misgendering' a colleague. The ongoing tribunal has been brought by her against the hospital and Dr Upton and won't recommence until July. Surely they won't be daft enough to sack her on Friday?

Can you imagine the stress this puts on someone.

Yes and it is a deliberate tactic to delay the hearing in the hope that the person involved will succumb to pressure and withdraw. This process has taken over a year to be heard, partly because Sandie Peggie insisted it was heard in public, which established that the doctor involved was by law a man, therefore could legally be referred to as 'he.' If it had been an internal tribunal goodness knows what would have happened. They were considering reporting her to the Police for a Hate crime.
What criminal nonsense to foist the aberrant fantasies of an arrogant man on a nurse simply doing her job and availing herself of the available facilities for women.

I totally agree, Allira.

ViceVersa

Yes, as I think I said earlier in thread, Sandie Peggie was damned if she did, damned if she didn't. From Dr Upton's evidence, he was offended when she spoke up about his use of the female changing room, then offended when she simply left the room. The whole saga just gets more and more ludicrous by the day, but make no mistake, the outcome of this is vital for the future rights of women and girls.

make no mistake, the outcome of this is vital for the future rights of women and girls.

Yes, it is but the fact it has been brought at all is extremely worrying.

It's the truth 'the process is the punishment'. You have to have an evil side to want to persecute and harm another human in this way. The TRAs talk about the hate speech of 'misgendering', here we see hate and vengeance enacted..

Can you imagine the stress this puts on someone. I get stressed if I think I havent got enough time to write a report for work, imagine this level of stress connected with your work.

Dickens from what I gathered following the Tribunal Tweets live reporting, there was no verbal exchange on those occasions. It offended and hurt him greatly that Sandie waited outside until he left the room.
The biggest mistake some women made was to accede to the use of wrong sex pronouns in order to be 'kind'. Given that inch some transwomen have opted to take the proverbial mile, time to row right back.

Yes, as I think I said earlier in thread, Sandie Peggie was damned if she did, damned if she didn't. From Dr Upton's evidence, he was offended when she spoke up about his use of the female changing room, then offended when she simply left the room. The whole saga just gets more and more ludicrous by the day, but make no mistake, the outcome of this is vital for the future rights of women and girls.

ViceVersa

Dickens

ViceVersa

Just to add to this whole sorry saga, a trans rights group has reported the editor of the Scottish Daily Express to the police for referring to Dr Upton as a man in their reporting of the tribunal.

Since the whole case rests upon the fact that Dr Upton is a man then it would seem a necessary correction to the fantasy this doctor wants everyone to collude with.

Indeed, not to mention the fact that the tribunal judge stated that Dr Upton could be referred to as a man in the proceedings.

Yes - I've just seen that piece of information.

What struck me about this case is that on two previous occasions, nurse Peggie left the changing room on discovering Upton in it and that Upton has cited this as part of the harassment.

I don't know if words were spoken on those two occasions, but if there was no exchange, what is Upton actually saying... that a woman - once inside the changing room - doesn't have the right to remove herself from it because if she does, she's harassing a trans woman?

Are women to be compelled to conspire with another's feelings about their personal identity to the point where their own free will is denied, on pain of prosecution for harassment if they refuse to accede this demand?

- or was there a verbal exchange during these occasions? I hope so because if not that's setting a very dangerous precedent for women.

Dickens

ViceVersa

Just to add to this whole sorry saga, a trans rights group has reported the editor of the Scottish Daily Express to the police for referring to Dr Upton as a man in their reporting of the tribunal.

Since the whole case rests upon the fact that Dr Upton is a man then it would seem a necessary correction to the fantasy this doctor wants everyone to collude with.

Indeed, not to mention the fact that the tribunal judge stated that Dr Upton could be referred to as a man in the proceedings.

ViceVersa

Just to add to this whole sorry saga, a trans rights group has reported the editor of the Scottish Daily Express to the police for referring to Dr Upton as a man in their reporting of the tribunal.

Since the whole case rests upon the fact that Dr Upton is a man then it would seem a necessary correction to the fantasy this doctor wants everyone to collude with.

Oh I see, sorry. Well the theory that is put forward often is that you just need one or two activists on an organisations board/management committee and it is as we know impossible for many to resist.

Yes, I know, but I meant who is driving this case? How is it possible for someone to spend a lot of (I assume taxpayers') money to bring a case that is basically denying biology and also denying women's rights to privacy and dignity.

I totally believe that funding should not be allowed to get in the way of justice, but there has to come a point where budget holders can say no?

It is a mens rights movement that has used the 'be kind' strategy to great effect.

Doodledog

*who exactly is driving this*?

Indeed. I would very much like to know.

I’d like to say it is sick misogynistic males, but sadly, I think some females have been sucked into the men are always in the right, even if they are blatant liars.

who exactly is driving this?

Indeed. I would very much like to know.

Sorry - I see it is a different group which has reported the editor.
Hopping on the bandwagon.

I wonder if the intransigence of some who are continuing with this to the point of reporting the editor of a newspaper to the police is because they are pushing their own agenda or they are now scared they'll lose face?
Unfortunately, whoever they are, they are more powerful than an experienced nurse.
Scary stuff.

Agreed, Allira. It's now at the 'you couldn't make it up' stage.

ViceVersa

Just to add to this whole sorry saga, a trans rights group has reported the editor of the Scottish Daily Express to the police for referring to Dr Upton as a man in their reporting of the tribunal.

I hope the police have officers with some common sense.

It seems to have completely disappeared as they try to drag us all down their rabbit hole.