Next step in overriding female rights!

Mollygo and ViceVersa I agree

Yes, exactly, Mollygo. His sense of entitlement has been at the very crux of this from the beginning. He believes his feelings should override anyone else's feelings - or their rights.

Yes ViceVersa

All the if . . . would it matter situations conjured up to get round this, don't alter the fact that Upton is happy to lie by word about his sex or by deed by his decision to appear when a female doctor has been requested.

My issue with this man, is that he is expecting us all to go along with his lie he is a man, always will be however he presents to the outside world.

I was treated by a wonderful kind and gentle male doctor last week, he had to fit a leg brace (crotch to ankle). I didn’t have a problem with the intimacy he wasn’t pretending to be something he wasn’t (or could never be)

Grandmabatty

Politics Nerd, if I was unconscious, bleeding heavily or in excruciating pain, I doubt if I would be able to be aware of the gender of the doctor. Therefore women can't necessarily refuse him as a doctor. Aveline I completely agree with you

Obviously in a medical emergency, you're hardly likely to be in a fit state to question the sex of your doctor, but let's say you had been the victim of a sexual assault and requested a female doctor. Would you then be happy to be treated by a trans doctor? Maybe you would - many other women would not. But this case is about far more than Dr Upton's 'gender status'. His refusal to accept that there is such a thing as biological sex calls into question his very ability to practise. Differences in biological sex DO matter when it comes to medical issues - heart attack symptoms are just one such example, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Those are lots of words to explain assault.
I cant speak for others but I know this case very well.

Politics Nerd, if I was unconscious, bleeding heavily or in excruciating pain, I doubt if I would be able to be aware of the gender of the doctor. Therefore women can't necessarily refuse him as a doctor. Aveline I completely agree with you

If the doctor has not had full surgery, then they are male.

Even if they have 'full surgery' they remain male. A man who suffers an accident that causes him to lose his penis doesn't become female, a castrated bull doesn't become a cow, nor a castrated stallion a mare.
Their hearts and lungs remain larger, their bones don't shorten. Even after years of cross sex hormones their muscle mass remains greater than women's. As Professor Robert Winston famously said on 'Question Time' "you cannot change your sex".

As for Dr Upton, I don't believe any patient who has requested a female doctor is the least bit interested in his my medical history, my sexual orientation, my place of residence, my age,, it's his biological sex they're interested in.

There are more nuanced details than Dr Upton's grandiose verbosity.

My apologies if this has already been quoted but detail often tell a more nuanced story than headlines.

^Also

Ms Cunningham told the tribunal: ‘It’s right, isn’t it, you feel no obligation to disclose your true sex, or if you prefer to put it that way your trans history, to a woman who has asked to see a female doctor?’

Dr Upton, who started working for NHS Fife in August 2023, told her: ‘I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to disclose private matters of my personal life to any of my patient be that my trans history, my medical history, my sexual orientation, my place of residence, my age, these are not things that I am obligated to share with the patient because they have no bearing on my ability to care for that patient.

‘If the patient, for any reason, doesn’t wish to be seen by me and they communicate that to me, I don’t see them.’

The tribunal, before employment judge Sandy Kemp, continues.

The doctor was offered separate accommodation and refused it because it would have meant othering:
othering: a social process that involves negating another person's individual humanity, leading to their marginalization and the formation of prejudices against them. It often manifests as treating individuals as outsiders or different from a perceived normative group, which can contribute to societal issues such as racism, sexism, and homophobia
Difficult to fight when you have a local MP who supports this.

What I don't understand is why only the nurse was suspended from her work, to my mind they both should have been suspended. The other solution may be separate toilets/ changing for trans people. If they have a problem with that, then I'm not sure what the solution will be. If the doctor has not had full surgery, then they are male. It must be interesting conversations on maternity wards. I have no problem with trans people, but I do have a problem with safe spaces for women and girls being eroded. I also have to be very careful what I say in my own country and online, as it can probably be classed as a hate crime. You are frightened to open your mouth to say anything nowadays. Mind you, even more confusing is a couple of months back reading about apparently someone who is tri- gender! I honestly cannot keep up with or understand it all. I mean no offence to anyone.

grannydarkhair I do know this. I have been following every employment tribunal, the cancellation of people, and the ruining of careers and lives, and the fear that women suffer when they speak of their lived experiences for years. But, many more women are speaking out now and that is so wonderful to see.

I totally agree that the BBC, and newsprint media are totally guilty in continuing to spread false information and confusion in their reporting. Some newsprint media are worse than others, and in my mind the Guardian is dreadful.
The BBC also seem determined to promote drag queens at every turn, it is a total mockery and cruel caricature of women.

I have been following the conversation from that X poster over the last day or so, another ridiculous person stating that we can tell someone 'to leave a changing room, but we must be polite with their pronouns'.

Women will have no rights, when men who claim they are women claim them from us, and report us to the police for 'hate crimes' when we disagree and refuse validate them.

The WI is no longer a women's organisation NanKate because there are men identifying as women in it, and one or two at a high level in the organisation, I think? I am so sorry about this for you, but maybe you all could band together and join up with others who do not agree with the direction the WI. is heading.

MSM is mainstream media and TIM, is trans identified males.

Can you explain MSM and TIMS, don’t know what they mean. Thanks.

I find it sad and alarming that I am seen by some at my WI as spreading alarm and dislike of transwomen when I voice my genuine concerns. Those who agree with me are too frightened to support me verbally.

My late second cousin was trans I had a perfectly reasonable relationship with her.

I worry that lesbians who do not want transwomen as partners, are told they are transphobic.

charley68 It’s not a case of “at long last…” - women and a few men have been fighting this battle for many years, many to their detriment.
Here on Gransnet, Doodledog, Mollygo, Rosie51 and others have been particularly strong voices arguing against the madness of gender ideology/queer theory that has become seemingly imbedded into many of our institutions and workplaces.
MSM has a lot to answer for, with alleged rapists and sex offenders being called women/she because they have declared themselves to be trans.
The BBC also has become almost obsessed with shoe-horning TIMs into programmes, and there has been countless articles about drag queens on the news website.
I agree however that it is relatively recently that the “general public” have become aware of these issues. And yet, even over the last two days, on X we have a supposedly well educated man posting a thread saying “there is no need to be hostile or impolite to people who identify as a different gender. All that’s needed is to politely but firmly say “no, we can’t allow you to do that because we have a duty of respect to others”.
JKRowling and others have politely (in most cases) tried explaining to him why this hasn’t and doesn’t work (the Sandie Peggie Tribunal being a prime example).

Galaxy

It is the word no that they struggle the most with.

Absolutely. It is that sense of entitlement which overrides everything.

Female is the thing they just 'know' they are in their feelings, even though they can't define it and can't know it's something they should be as they don't know what it means.

It is the word no that they struggle the most with.

Rosie51

^What part of female do they not understand?^ the part that excludes men!

Well, a female gave birth to them at some point too!

What part of female do they not understand? the part that excludes men!

Female - easily googled if they are in doubt:

Female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.

Female: young woman, girl
The word comes from the Latin femella, meaning “young woman, girl,” which in turn is based on femina, meaning “woman.” Woman

What part of female do they not understand?

GrannyGravy13

I find his statement worrying, especially from a doctor…

Surely no one has the right to get changed in front of any of their colleagues

Excellent posts on this thread, and I am so glad to see and read them. It is heartening that women are at long last taking this invasion, and take over of our rights, privacy, sports, and our spaces seriously.

Before I retired, (6 yrs) the female changing room was for female nurses; female physio, OT, and other female members of staff had their own spaces - more than likely in their own depts.

Doctors in the ED, or ITU, or other high care areas had their own changing areas, and wore scrubs because of the area of their work. Ward doctors wore their own clothes, and 'bare to the elbow', some of the consultants continued to wear white coats, but most no longer do.

I think that the 'Clinical Nurse manager' giving evidence today was an utter train crash during cross examination.