Who DO (Trump and Vance) think they are?

I don't think USA is bothered by Russia at all.

Trump wants Europe to pay up and defend themselves. USA is wanting its military spend to go towards defending against China.

Zelenskyy himself said without the USA the war would be over.

No idea what will happen but surely nobody wants this war to continue endlessly. The loss of life is horrific. The cost exorbitant.

So what so we do?

I can’t get my head around the idea that the Uk is dependent on another superpower in this way. Of course Vance must mean that the USA no longer subscribes to net zero and woke ideology expanded under Biden and that is their prerogative. As it is ours to pursue them.

Whitewavemark2

The point is that europe has overall a bigger military power (except nuclear of course) than Russia, and look how dismally Russia military has performed in Ukraine.

What I’m trying to say is that we must consider defence without USA assistance, as the USA is no longer a dependable ally, or even an ally of any sort?

When Vance can tell us that our values no longer run in parallel with the USA and that we have no freedom of speech, yet his president is cosying up to a leader who has happily killed people criticising him and has never tolerated freedom of speech, then I think we need to re-evaluate our so called friendship.

Totally agree WW.

I don’t think we have any choice really.

Under Trump the USA is isolating itself from Europe and seems to be getting friendly with Russia. It's clear he wants something they have as the accumulation of wealth is Trump's main aim.
He doesn't care for Ukraine and only wants to stop the war for his own benefit. If Ukraine loses land that's nothing to concern him.

Churchview

*Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia, the main players are already meeting to thrash out a way forward. Europe is on the sidelines.*

The main players? Zelensky is one of the main players. He isn't there.

Meanwhile, in today's Financial Times - Trumps envoy is trying to get the Romanian government to return the Tate brothers' passports so they can travel freely.

That would be absolutely appalling. David Tate and his ilk are a real danger to our teenage boys.

Whitewavemark2

The point is that europe has overall a bigger military power (except nuclear of course) than Russia, and look how dismally Russia military has performed in Ukraine.

What I’m trying to say is that we must consider defence without USA assistance, as the USA is no longer a dependable ally, or even an ally of any sort?

When Vance can tell us that our values no longer run in parallel with the USA and that we have no freedom of speech, yet his president is cosying up to a leader who has happily killed people criticising him and has never tolerated freedom of speech, then I think we need to re-evaluate our so called friendship.

Yes.

You mean the sex traffickers and rapists?

Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia, the main players are already meeting to thrash out a way forward. Europe is on the sidelines.

The main players? Zelensky is one of the main players. He isn't there.

Meanwhile, in today's Financial Times - Trumps envoy is trying to get the Romanian government to return the Tate brothers' passports so they can travel freely.

Whitewavemark2

Yes that’s right.

But if Europe is under direct threat from Russia, would that not concentrate minds?

We would hope so.

General Keith Kellogg, Trumps special adviser, is in Brussels today and later Poland. Next stop, Ukraine itself. Courtesy BBC News.

The point is that europe has overall a bigger military power (except nuclear of course) than Russia, and look how dismally Russia military has performed in Ukraine.

What I’m trying to say is that we must consider defence without USA assistance, as the USA is no longer a dependable ally, or even an ally of any sort?

When Vance can tell us that our values no longer run in parallel with the USA and that we have no freedom of speech, yet his president is cosying up to a leader who has happily killed people criticising him and has never tolerated freedom of speech, then I think we need to re-evaluate our so called friendship.

Whitewavemark2

So if “little” Ukraine can hold off Russia, why do we think that a United Europe can’t do the same without USA help?

I guess the clue is in “United”

Sadly they are not united. Even yesterday’s round table meeting showed that. The Germans do not want to send troops, nor do Spain or Poland. The German chancellor said he was very irritated by the question. There are too many disparate points of view, meetings about meetings, never any agreement and all jockeying for position. Macron posing for photos trying to assume importance.

Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia, the main players are already meeting to thrash out a way forward. Europe is on the sidelines.

Yes that’s right.

But if Europe is under direct threat from Russia, would that not concentrate minds?

334 million - population of US. 1 country. 1 leader.

449 million - population of the EU. 27 countries. 27 leaders.

So if “little” Ukraine can hold off Russia, why do we think that a United Europe can’t do the same without USA help?

I guess the clue is in “United”

I am probably speaking the obvious.

But Trump now has much power.
Not sure in reality how much he listens to anyone else.

The EU on the other hand - I dont know how many countries, with how many groups of voters,
I doubt 19 countries or however many, could even all be in agreement on whatever sort of coffee to serve at functions.

“I do think that Trump believes in what he is doing, but I am not convinced that he 'knows' what he is doing. He approaches politics in a transactional way as if he is running a business.”

Yes as a business with no room for emotion, he wants the best value from everything, he really hates the “woke” social changes that were made by Biden.
A stark contrast to us and EU where we want to support little Ukraine, but we are toothless tigers and can only roar but not bite, we can do nothing without the US

Yes I hope so too, Caro41.

Putin is still in his heart a Soviet communist. He is also unable to appear weak because he is Russian. However, his crazy plan to take Ukraine didn't work and he has had to spend time thinking how he can save face.

Trump is only a puppet for Putin- that's how he sees people, the ones he can control and the ones he can destroy.

He knows now that he can't control Europe on his own so has had to befriend Trump. The problem is they are both weak men wanting to appear strong. I think they underestimated the strength of Europe.

My positive side thinks we can do this because despite our differences Europe has always found its old alliances.
My negative side things it may be too late- we should have stood up to Putin years ago and didn't, just seeking Russian money instead.

Now we do have to wake up, and pretty quickly!

MaizieD

I think they're behaving very much as the European 'great powers' have done over the past 2 centuries. Carving up other people's lands and installing unasked for regimes.

We don't do it any more. But we've been telling the USA that it's the 'Leader of the Western World' for so long that Trump thinks that they not only lead it but they can order it to suit himself.

You have posted my recent thinking MaizieD.

Yes, this mirrors precisely what Great Britain did when building its empire. Perhaps we could gather historical experts to offer insights into dealing with Emperor Trump and his entourage. Presumably, our aim would be to prevent him/America from profiting from the denuding of Ukraine's sovereignty.

Regarding the "Leader of the Western World" role, it will likely require a significant number of Europeans – including British Europeans – to be prepared to cease buying from America, both individually and as countries. I have no wish to harm the American people, but only they can remove this man from power."

As a very young child I can remember my mother listening to Churchill’s original Iron Curtain speech made in America just after WW2+. Since then some countries have come out from behind that curtain and found a kind of freedom but this is now what Putin now wants back - the old Soviet Union . We have been walking blindfold into this situation for years .
During decades , such as the 60s, 70s etc Churchill fell out of favour , being charged with “ warmongering “ instead of appeasing but now I’m seeing placards saying “ Be more Churchill , less Chamberlain “ . Europe has become complacent and lazy but maybe this situation will jerk us into reality.

How are you so sure? If President Trump has his way, Palestinians will have no say in their disposal future.

They will not be excluded

Wyllow3

I agree Monica. I hate a world where its necessary to have an army at all, but peacekeeping is surely something sorely needed and something to be proud of, not isolation 'nothing to do with us".

Wyllow3 we will never have a world where armies are not necessary. Animals fight for territory or leadership of their group. Eat or be eaten has helped life of all kinds develop on earth since life first started.

The reason the US has been so dominant since 1945 is because every European country came out of WW2 bankrupt and dependent on loans and grants, the Marshall Plan, from the US to rebuild their countries and their countries - and it is not wise to bite the hand that feeds you.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was inevitable that the US should want to withdraw and leave Europe to manage its own defence. What is happening now should have happened 20 years ago, when the Soviet Union was still struggling, not left until a psychopathic dictator has (again) taken over Russia.

HousePlantQueen

woodenspoon

No Babs03. I think you’ve read far more into what I said and are showing your own prejudice.

IF Trump manages to bring this war to an end we all benefit. I’m not one to want everlasting wars myself. I think of the money, billions, we are sending to Ukraine, money which could be better spent here in this country. I also think of the lives lost through these wars without end.

IF Trump manages to bring this to a close, and nobody really knows, it will benefit us all.

Not all European countries are our friends you know. They might say they are when they want our money, but I don’t believe they all are.

Like you, I’m entitled to my views. As a matter of interest weren’t you on another thread extolling the virtues of Iran, or was that another poster?

That was me, on the thread about the couple detained in Iran. If you are going to use my views, get them right please. I said that Iran/Persia was a civilisation with a reputation for fine art, literature, poetry, buildings. Nowhere is this anything like support for the current extreme administration.

I think you’ll find it was her because she replied to me saying so! Get it right please.

woodenspoon

No Babs03. I think you’ve read far more into what I said and are showing your own prejudice.

IF Trump manages to bring this war to an end we all benefit. I’m not one to want everlasting wars myself. I think of the money, billions, we are sending to Ukraine, money which could be better spent here in this country. I also think of the lives lost through these wars without end.

IF Trump manages to bring this to a close, and nobody really knows, it will benefit us all.

Not all European countries are our friends you know. They might say they are when they want our money, but I don’t believe they all are.

Like you, I’m entitled to my views. As a matter of interest weren’t you on another thread extolling the virtues of Iran, or was that another poster?

That was me, on the thread about the couple detained in Iran. If you are going to use my views, get them right please. I said that Iran/Persia was a civilisation with a reputation for fine art, literature, poetry, buildings. Nowhere is this anything like support for the current extreme administration.