Is Yvette Cooper right?

Silverbrooks

Unless you can provide a more recent source, that's based on a news story from almost five years ago.

Live like what? How is not being able to switch on ADP on a phone you say you don't have invading your privacy?

If you are so worried about terrorism why are you anti a Government initiative to tackle it?

Let's not forget that Yaxley Lennon stoked the Southport riots while on holiday in Greece. How do you think he was communicating with the ringleaders?

Exactly! He was outside UK jurisdiction, as are many of the perpetuators of child porn and other offences. Videos are made abroad and encrypted services are used to access them from the UK. It's almost impossible to stop the videos being made, but it is possible to catch the people organising their distribution to UK audiences.

Jackiest

People sending messages or files do not have to rely on Apple to encrypt it. If they do not consider Apple secure they can add there own encryption which can be as strong as they like. Takes a little more effort but if you are a terrorist or sending depraved images that is what they will do.

But it's so much easier for them to use ADP and I don't believe in making things easy for criminals and their depraved clients.

Iam64 probably best you avoid being a terrorist or deal in depraved images then.

I would hope that will not be a problem for you.

Jackiest, my technical skills are legendary. I feel a bit like my grannie who pronounced ‘I’m having nowt to do with that there decimal money’
Maybe not quite as Luddite as my grannie but I couldn’t find the dark web with a torch. I’m well aware bad people can and do

People sending messages or files do not have to rely on Apple to encrypt it. If they do not consider Apple secure they can add there own encryption which can be as strong as they like. Takes a little more effort but if you are a terrorist or sending depraved images that is what they will do.

foxie48

I would also like people to think of the vile people who have been using ADP to share depraved images of children, safe in the knowledge than they are safe from detection.

So would I foxie48. It’s shocking , The ease with which babies, toddlers children of all ages can be sexually abused, exploited and terrorised so their images can be sold to sick, dangerous individuals
These children live with the horror throughout their lives, into adulthood. We should be doing all we can to stop this vile trade

I would also like people to think of the vile people who have been using ADP to share depraved images of children, safe in the knowledge than they are safe from detection.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Well perhaps if we didn't have 43,000 people on the terrorist watch list roaming the streets, government would not need to invade people's privacy. We don't have to live like this.

Terrorism is only one of the many things the security forces have to keep there eyes on. Espionage, cyber attacks, international crime, child pornography, modern slavery, are just items that spring to mind. There are many more.

Of course we would, a figure like 43,000 on a terrorist watch list is meaningless, probably over half of them, if not more, are no more a danger than I am likely to be, they are on the list because they have a couple of friends or a family member on the list and they are being watched in case they do become a danger.

Think about those criminal events, where after the event, quite a number of people are taken in for questioning, but later released without any charge, because they have no involvement, but were part of a group, some of whom were present, or are related to someone or possibly are unwilling witnesses. I bet the watch list is much the same.

-and then there are criminal gangs with other goals than terrorism, people smugglers, etc.etc.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Well perhaps if we didn't have 43,000 people on the terrorist watch list roaming the streets, government would not need to invade people's privacy. We don't have to live like this.

It isn't just terrorists. You do understand about sex offenders and how they exchange horrific.photographs and videos? We don't need to have apple giving them a safe space for that.

I very much doubt that this move is going to substantially reduce Apple earnings in the UK in anyway. Most people want their standard high levels of encryption/protection and the alternatives, as Silverbrooks pointed out, are not attractive.

Unless you can provide a more recent source, that's based on a news story from almost five years ago.

Live like what? How is not being able to switch on ADP on a phone you say you don't have invading your privacy?

If you are so worried about terrorism why are you anti a Government initiative to tackle it?

Let's not forget that Yaxley Lennon stoked the Southport riots while on holiday in Greece. How do you think he was communicating with the ringleaders?

Well perhaps if we didn't have 43,000 people on the terrorist watch list roaming the streets, government would not need to invade people's privacy. We don't have to live like this.

Visgir1

My son works for a IT company that specialises in Cyber Security. Yesterday afternoon they all had an email which told them to go out and buy a new work phone if they had an Apple phone. They all have the personal choice of Apple or Android, the company will have to pay for new phones.

On Android phones, end-to-end encryption is primarily achieved through dedicated messaging apps like Signal, WhatsApp, and Telegram - three of the conduits which are used by criminals to organise themselves.

New York Times headline 10 September 2024:

Telegram has become a global sewer of criminal activity, disinformation, child sexual abuse material, terrorism and racist incitement

and this blog 22 November 2024:

Why criminals love Signal and Telegram

medium.com/@davidsehyeonbaek/why-criminals-love-signal-and-telegram-5f2d2c5611b9

The answer is education and supervision because it’s not just knives, scissors, screwdrivers, golf clubs and many other tools can kill, if we allow gangs there will be rivalries and fights., they will find a weapon to use. More likely nothing will change and the killing will continue until it gets as bad a the US

FriedGreenTomatoes2

This is the kind of issue where a co-ordinated international approach is needed. Either this level of government access is needed for security purposes or it isn't. For the UK government to uniquely claim they have a need for it just makes them look silly.

Or other countries negligent in not protecting abused children.

That’s interesting Visgirl.
I’m sure this will be like ripples in a pond for some businesses.
An extra expense and won’t be done unless considered essential.

Excellent post Silverbrooks. Thanks 🙏👏👏👏

My son works for a IT company that specialises in Cyber Security. Yesterday afternoon they all had an email which told them to go out and buy a new work phone if they had an Apple phone. They all have the personal choice of Apple or Android, the company will have to pay for new phones.

Silverbrooks

What is it that you would want to send that doesn't automatically have end-to-end encryption under Apple's default standard date protectio, even if the default for a particular data category is in-transit encryption? How do you know that your recipient has activated ADP?

Quoting my own post because it would be interesting to get an answer to understand whether people know what they are talking about - whether they understand the difference between Apple iOS and MacOS default in-transit encryption and ADP which both sender and recipient have to activate else whatever is being sent defaults to in-transit.

The letting in the hackers argument is akin to the person here who recently argued that it was pointless Labour trying to stop criminal trafficking gangs as other criminals would just come in and take over.

If that's the case then any law enforcement becomes pointless.

Terrorists, traffickers, paedophiles etc are using ADP end-to-end encryption with private keys to exchange data. I applaud any attempts by the UK government to thwart their activities.

If the perpetrators don't like to they take can their case to the ECHR under Article 10 and see how far they get:

10.2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Silverbrooks

Have you enabled ADP? Just curious to know whether you understand what you are talking about.

No. I don’t have a smartphone.
But I’m sure others in the UK have. Yes I’ve read about ADP.
(Advanced Data Protection).

It will be interesting tomorrow to see what the various newspapers make of all this.

It didn't feature greatly in newspapers this morning.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdel777jxlwo

Just FT and Times. "Apple in privacy row"

Telegraph and Guardian led on Ukraine/Starmer meeting with Trump, the I on "Russia drone sightings, the DM in AI and recording artists, Mirror on Royal family, and Express on human interest story.

GrannyGravy13

Getting back to the OP, if Apple give governments (any government) a key to the back door of its encryption software, then the hackers will be following them in.

Nail on Head.
Which is why Apple won’t do it for anybody.

petra

escaped

I'm no expert, but I think Apple have a point. They are no doubt just reacting to the way this government made the sneaky, uninformed request. Apple can't allow a backdoor without the entire service being no longer secure to everyone. I don't think Yvette Cooper is up to speed with the workings of technology, which move far far faster than she can blink.

Is my understanding right that it only affects new Apple users, not those already using it? And what percentage of people actually use ADP anyway?

I like Yvette Cooper, she may not be a complete dimwit, but I fear she might be another one out of her depth. I actually fear this entire government, in following its own interests, might be causing the UK to slip down the pile and I'm not hopeful things will reset.

Sad to say that your right Re Evette Cooper not being up to speed on how fast tech is changing.
Is she aware of what replaced Encrochat?
If you’ve got this new system you don’t need ADP.

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/gangsters-now-using-new-generation-20017674

Encrochat has no relevance to Apple phones.

petra

escaped

I'm no expert, but I think Apple have a point. They are no doubt just reacting to the way this government made the sneaky, uninformed request. Apple can't allow a backdoor without the entire service being no longer secure to everyone. I don't think Yvette Cooper is up to speed with the workings of technology, which move far far faster than she can blink.

Is my understanding right that it only affects new Apple users, not those already using it? And what percentage of people actually use ADP anyway?

I like Yvette Cooper, she may not be a complete dimwit, but I fear she might be another one out of her depth. I actually fear this entire government, in following its own interests, might be causing the UK to slip down the pile and I'm not hopeful things will reset.

Sad to say that your right Re Evette Cooper not being up to speed on how fast tech is changing.
Is she aware of what replaced Encrochat?
If you’ve got this new system you don’t need ADP.

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/gangsters-now-using-new-generation-20017674

I don’t think Yvette Cooper is a one man band dreaming up ideas, is she? You can guarantee that if a system is discussed in the Liverpool Echo the cyber security services in the Home Office will know about it. We know about Apple because they have kicked back, but there are bound to be lots of different initiatives.

Not sure, but if it helps to prevent crime, child porn, radicalisation and national security, I guess I might be in favour.