Surely we must pay more taxes!?

Doodledog

For the record, I don't envy anyone either. I could afford basic private medicine - few could afford things like transplants even if they were available, so it's the routine stuff that has queues that get jumped. I'm not even saying I would never do it. I have arthritis in my knees, and was offered a transplant but then Covid hit and since then I haven't gone back on the list as I can manage and the physio suggested I put off as long as possible so I don't need a second one in older age. I'm not in constant agony, and if I were, who knows what I would do?

The assumption that all objection to unfairness is based on envy says more about those making the assumptions than the objectors, IMO.

What is it based on other than envy?

Many people are public spirited BevSec, and care about others who are in less fortunate circumstances. Many also have ideological objections to private medicine for that reason, because they don’t believe in queue jumping.

The NHS still picks up the complex cases, and those who are treated privately initially when things go wrong too, so it’s a fallacy to suggest that private medicine saves pressures on the NHS. If consultants who work in both the NHS and privately could not work privately they would automatically have full time NHS contracts, thus increasing NHs capacity.

We have to pay more tax - and tax the very rich a lot more. Many of the super rich are publicly saying they would like to pay more tax.

BevSec

Doodledog

For the record, I don't envy anyone either. I could afford basic private medicine - few could afford things like transplants even if they were available, so it's the routine stuff that has queues that get jumped. I'm not even saying I would never do it. I have arthritis in my knees, and was offered a transplant but then Covid hit and since then I haven't gone back on the list as I can manage and the physio suggested I put off as long as possible so I don't need a second one in older age. I'm not in constant agony, and if I were, who knows what I would do?

The assumption that all objection to unfairness is based on envy says more about those making the assumptions than the objectors, IMO.

What is it based on other than envy?

My partner is one who could have afforded private healthcare while he was working, but he has never used it because he has very strong principles - nothing to do with envy.

Boz
Big Corporations use Private Medicare to facilitate the workforce. My son had a minor shoulder op. within a week of diagnosis to get him back to work; six months to a yr. wait on NHS.

True.
If you are self employed, or the sole proprietor of a company, then private medical care is pretty necessary. Faster diagnosis and faster access to consultants leads to faster access to treatment, which means you can get back to work faster, and the business won't suffer.
Also, sometimes superior medication than the NHS prescribes is given, so recovery is speedier.
The downside can be the aftercare and follow-up once discharged.
DH & I have had private insurance for over 40 years. It was expensive, but it was for our own peace of mind. I've not cost the NHS a penny in investigations or procedures, even my children were privately by the consultant because I had the money and the choice.

The NHS must find it equally as difficult as private companies to keep up with the ever increasing cost of modern medicine. That's why private health care fees keep rising inordinately too.

* my children were delivered privately by
(not conceived)!

Your choice escaped.

The NHS must find it equally as difficult as private companies to keep up with the ever increasing cost of modern medicine. That's why private health care fees keep rising inordinately too

The increasing cost of modern medicine is not such a huge concern for the NHS as it is for a private healthcare business because it doesn’t have to make a profit. Nor does it have to ‘earn’ anything before it can invest in new equipment. Every pound that the state spends into the NHS is reckoned to generate about £4 worth of economic activity. That is money circulating and recirculating in the economy and being gradually taxed back as it circulates.

While some of the profit made by a private healthcare business paid out as dividend, ‘may’ trickle down into the domestic economy it is less likely to as most of the shareholders are those wealthy people who have a ‘marginal propensity to spend’, or the money could leave the UK economy completely by way of foreign shareholders or owners of the company.

Private healthcare, good as it is for those who can pay for it, ultimately leaches money out of the domestic economy.

Casdon

Many people are public spirited BevSec, and care about others who are in less fortunate circumstances. Many also have ideological objections to private medicine for that reason, because they don’t believe in queue jumping.

The NHS still picks up the complex cases, and those who are treated privately initially when things go wrong too, so it’s a fallacy to suggest that private medicine saves pressures on the NHS. If consultants who work in both the NHS and privately could not work privately they would automatically have full time NHS contracts, thus increasing NHs capacity.

We are all public spirited as taxpayers, giving to foodbanks and charity shops, all of which I do, as well as the Lifeboats and Salvation Army. We all have social consciences. That is not the same issue as some on here wishing to “redistribute’ wealth, usually someone elses!

I have no ideological objections whatsoever to private medicine, just grateful for that choice . I used to work in the NHS.

It still comes across as the politics of envy imo.

Call it whatever you wish! I'm immune to name-calling.

PS. I know people who have no social consciences, so I don't know where the "we" comes from.

growstuff

PS. I know people who have no social consciences, so I don't know where the "we" comes from.

Its not name calling, I would never do that to a fellow poster. If you have a closed mind its difficult to listen to reasonable discussion of issues. For example consultants give back to the NHS for their years of training as well as their private
Practice. They could just go privately. In your world this would be stopped and they would all be forced just to work for the NHS. Its why its so important to allow free choice.

I don't have a closed mind, but I do have principles. I just don't do envy - it's a harmful emotion and I'd rather live the life I have to its full potential.

No, in my world people wouldn't be stopped from using private healthcare. I'd rather have a world where there would be no advantage, so it wouldn't be contemplated.

Don't make assumptions!

How can there be a world with no advantages to being able to afford for something? Money will always make the world go round! I am on holiday in Egypt at the moment. You can walk in to a pharmacy and buy any meds you want without a px! Its choice if you can afford it. I would love that in the UK.

BevSec

Casdon

Many people are public spirited BevSec, and care about others who are in less fortunate circumstances. Many also have ideological objections to private medicine for that reason, because they don’t believe in queue jumping.

The NHS still picks up the complex cases, and those who are treated privately initially when things go wrong too, so it’s a fallacy to suggest that private medicine saves pressures on the NHS. If consultants who work in both the NHS and privately could not work privately they would automatically have full time NHS contracts, thus increasing NHs capacity.

We are all public spirited as taxpayers, giving to foodbanks and charity shops, all of which I do, as well as the Lifeboats and Salvation Army. We all have social consciences. That is not the same issue as some on here wishing to “redistribute’ wealth, usually someone elses!

I have no ideological objections whatsoever to private medicine, just grateful for that choice . I used to work in the NHS.

It still comes across as the politics of envy imo.

People who earn above the threshold have no choice but to be taxpayers BevSec, it has absolutely nothing to do with them being public spirited. Not everybody has a social conscience, and small donations to organisations you support, whilst worthwhile, doesn’t amount to a social conscience either - that is about wanting a more equal society and being prepared to access services in the same way as everybody else so queueing to wait your turn.
It’s nothing to do with money in my case, I could afford private healthcare - I just don’t agree with the principle of it. As an ex NHS employee it would be selling my soul to use it, knowing it detracts from core services. The only exceptions I would make are for services that aren’t available on the NHS, like dental implants, because dentistry is now almost all private and paying for ‘frills’ is the only way of getting working teeth.

Always interested in what you explain about the financial stuff, MaizieD.
I assume the prices charged to the private medical companies are also higher than those billed to the NHS. For example, when the bill is itemised, I often wonder how it can be around £600 for some blood tests? And a private prescription can be about three times the price than if you buy it over the counter. As more and more people are paying for private medical insurance, one in eight I believe, you'd expect the prices to come down, not soar!
(As an aside, the cost of medicines at the vets is exorbitant too).

I don't see how there can ever be a more equal society?
For example, if two people on GN are given, say £100 today, by next week one will have made £1,000, one will have nothing to show for it.

Equality is about access to essential services regardless of income escaped.

growstuff

No, in my world people wouldn't be stopped from using private healthcare. I'd rather have a world where there would be no advantage, so it wouldn't be contemplated.

What would happen growstuff you would still have private medecine but it would offer better non-medical facilities than the NHS, better food, more comfortable and luxurious rooms, private day rooms and so on.

Just like hotels you could go to an NHS hospital, the equivalent of hotels with 1-3*. Private hospitals would be the equivalent of paying extra for 4-5* facilities.

One other advantage that private hospitals that aids the NHS. I had treatment for carpal tunnel problems a few months ago. The doctor was using a brand new development. A machine that undertook the treatment by using a very fine probe to cut the csrpal tendon. It meant cheaper treatment because I ha dno sedation, so an anaethetist was not needed and after the procedure, I was on my way home within half an hour.

The private hospital was trialing the equipment with the intention of the specialists encouraging the local NHS hospital to buy it as it would save the NHS time and money undertaking a frequently performed procedure.

I have since read that these machines are going to be acquired across the NHS over the next couple of years because the trials run by the private hospitals, of which I was part have been so successful.

Casdon

Equality is about access to essential services regardless of income escaped.

Good point, but aren't they linked?
So the person with the more money would want to pay for a higher quality service, and so inequality starts again?

It depends what you mean by higher quality service. For example, the same operation and aftercare provided on the same timescale, would give the same outcome. That is equality of access. If people want to pay for linen sheets and cordon bleu meals, it will not impact on the outcome, and I don’t have any objection to them doing that.

I'm not overly fussed about better food or bedding, though it is known to aid recovery.
Superior medicines, like antibiotics, is a different matter.

BevSec

How can there be a world with no advantages to being able to afford for something? Money will always make the world go round! I am on holiday in Egypt at the moment. You can walk in to a pharmacy and buy any meds you want without a px! Its choice if you can afford it. I would love that in the UK.

You can walk in to a pharmacy and buy any meds you want without a px!

What a chilling thought. Ignorance will win the day.

For example. With antibiotic resistant bacteria on the increase because of indiscriminate and improper use of antibiotics it will soon reach the stage where illnesses which were once a likely death sentence but which have been easily treated with antibiotics can no longer be cured and they will once again become a death sentence.

The human race really doesn’t deserve to live, it’s destroying its planet and destroying its wellbeing. Earth will be better off without us.