Well if Labour keep this up I think I’ll be voting for them at the next GE!

I dont really understand your last paragraph, how can people choose not to pay tax? Not criticising, just asking for clarification.
Sorry - my fault for not being clear.

I mean that by opting out of working, eg by staying at home when children are at school and not paying anything into the collective pot for many years if there are several children you can choose not to pay tax. There are other ways, but this is probably the most common.

When NI was paid (as it was for many years) until the youngest was 16, it meant that for every year someone was at home when the children were under 16 they get £11500 now if they get a NSP. £11.500 every year for doing nothing more than working parents did whilst also working and paying tax. NI is now only paid for 12 years, but even so, with several children that can mean decades of not contributing outside of your own household (which everyone cleans and keeps running) at the expense of those who get up early, defrost the car and go to work every morning, or however their hours work.

It's ok if you earn £50k+ for working 9-5, but if you are on minimum wage and work shifts which cost a fortune in childcare and operate unsociable hours you won't have much (if anything) more coming in than the neighbour who 'chooses' not to work and can live a sociable life whilst you look on. If your work is unfulfilling, the patronising ideas that you get more from work than the paycheque just grate. It doesn't matter if one person in your neighbour's house works - they only pay tax for themselves, not their spouse or partner.

By 'you' I mean 'anyone'.

If you earn enough to buy a small occupational pension which costs you money every month for years, and then find that you are entitled to only £200 a year that lifts you out of pension credit, and that difference brings your neighbour in £3500 a year, and then 20 years later you are supporting the person next to you in a care home because they didn't work and you did, of course you will be resentful.

This (and similar unfairnesses) is why Reform has support, and we are all at risk from fascism.

You did ask

I haven't done the sums (so I might be very wrong) but it might be better to raise the tax threshold and increase the basic rate of tax by a couple of pence.

Buttonjugs

I don't really understand how raising the personal allowance would cost so much money. Many people who earn less than that claim UC so that would offset quite a lot of it. I've always thought it's strange that the government taxes people who can't afford to live on their wages, so they have to apply for top up benefits as a result. Raising the allowance makes sense to me, and it would reduce costs for the DWP as well.

Don't forget that it wouldn't only be those earning just above the tax threshold who would benefit. Every income taxpayer would benefit from not having the first few thousand taxed, which is why it would cost so much. So it would cost a lot, but the poorest wouldn't benefit more than anybody else. If the intention is to help the poorest, it would be better to find another way of doing it.

boat people in hotels? Who had this idea? Was it the boat people?

Doodledog

BevSec

sazz1

People knocking Boris should remember he did a lot to help keep businesses going during the pandemic, including cost of living payments, furlow, eat out to help out etc. He seemed to care a lot about poorer people. Rishi wasn't too bad but was no good at negotiations. It was his way or the high way. But I did agree with his Rwanda project. Those who are horrified at this ask yourself
1 Are you happy with people drowning or suffocating to get here
2 Those with a spare room would you take in an illegal immigrant male with no paperwork to save the country paying hotel fees
3 are you happy with people born here sleeping in vans and tents while boat people are in hotels
4 Do you mind that these illegal immigrants get priority Dr, hospital and housing infront of us as they are classed as vulnerable
As for Starmer he seems to be targeting pensioners so not for me.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Have we had an answer to the question of why people feel KS is 'targeting' pensioners?

Yes, the government has stopped paying £200pa to everyone over 66, but how is that 'targeting' pensioners? Isn't it better that those on low incomes are targeted for help, whatever their age, and those on higher incomes should pay their own bills?

I am no defender of means-testing workers, but in this case I can see the logic behind it, even though the uncharitable part of me objects to those who have been capable of it but who have chosen not to pay enough tax to get a full pension continuing to get a free ride and given more than those who have just above the threshold.

I dont really understand your last paragraph, how can people choose not to pay tax? Not criticising, just asking for clarification.

BevSec

sazz1

People knocking Boris should remember he did a lot to help keep businesses going during the pandemic, including cost of living payments, furlow, eat out to help out etc. He seemed to care a lot about poorer people. Rishi wasn't too bad but was no good at negotiations. It was his way or the high way. But I did agree with his Rwanda project. Those who are horrified at this ask yourself
1 Are you happy with people drowning or suffocating to get here
2 Those with a spare room would you take in an illegal immigrant male with no paperwork to save the country paying hotel fees
3 are you happy with people born here sleeping in vans and tents while boat people are in hotels
4 Do you mind that these illegal immigrants get priority Dr, hospital and housing infront of us as they are classed as vulnerable
As for Starmer he seems to be targeting pensioners so not for me.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Have we had an answer to the question of why people feel KS is 'targeting' pensioners?

Yes, the government has stopped paying £200pa to everyone over 66, but how is that 'targeting' pensioners? Isn't it better that those on low incomes are targeted for help, whatever their age, and those on higher incomes should pay their own bills?

I am no defender of means-testing workers, but in this case I can see the logic behind it, even though the uncharitable part of me objects to those who have been capable of it but who have chosen not to pay enough tax to get a full pension continuing to get a free ride and given more than those who have just above the threshold.

Ramblingrose22

I think we can do without defenders of Boris. He was painfully slow to react to the dangers of Covid and allowed people to return from Covid-struck countries with no quarantine before re-entering the UK. He was just a good time boy who wanted to party and lied to Parliament about it afterwards.
His support for Ukraine was the only good thing about him and hopefully he is history now. His successors were so awful that they managed to make even him look good in some people's eyes.
Returning to the subject of the OP, Starmer had to do something about increasing defence expenditure in view of the latest circumstances. That's one example why, IMHO, manifestos are a waste of time.
Yes, we can argue about where the money should have come from but this is just a start. I think we can expect the next Budget to based on updated defence spending forecasts.

I think we can do without defenders of Boris.

I will defend and carry on defending him as much as
I like. I do not need your permission thank you.

sazz1

People knocking Boris should remember he did a lot to help keep businesses going during the pandemic, including cost of living payments, furlow, eat out to help out etc. He seemed to care a lot about poorer people. Rishi wasn't too bad but was no good at negotiations. It was his way or the high way. But I did agree with his Rwanda project. Those who are horrified at this ask yourself
1 Are you happy with people drowning or suffocating to get here
2 Those with a spare room would you take in an illegal immigrant male with no paperwork to save the country paying hotel fees
3 are you happy with people born here sleeping in vans and tents while boat people are in hotels
4 Do you mind that these illegal immigrants get priority Dr, hospital and housing infront of us as they are classed as vulnerable
As for Starmer he seems to be targeting pensioners so not for me.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

I don't really understand how raising the personal allowance would cost so much money. Many people who earn less than that claim UC so that would offset quite a lot of it. I've always thought it's strange that the government taxes people who can't afford to live on their wages, so they have to apply for top up benefits as a result. Raising the allowance makes sense to me, and it would reduce costs for the DWP as well.

What is this obsession with telling " poor" people what to feed their children?
Mr Anderson ( Reform) telling them to cook (from his cookbook? ) for 30p, and now Ms Oakeshott extolling the virtues of porridge.
For your information Ms Oakeshott, I loathe porridge at a deep and visceral level and attempts to persuade me to consume it resulted in tears and vomit.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Me! Would’ve thought that? 😁
Credit where it’s due Starmer.

1. Cutting overseas aid (silly projects like basket weaving in wherever) to divert money to extra spending on defence.
Excellent idea.
2. Amanda (useless) Pritchard has come to disagree with Wes Streeting about the way forward for NHS England. Good. She’s on over £300,000 p.a. and her deputy not much less. Spending a huge budget - some of the woke nonsense I now expect will be curtailed. Don’t bang the door on the way out Amanda love.
3. Proposals being considered I hear (at the nail salon, only chatting, so no links or fact checking done - sorry everyone) for Rachel Reeves raising the Personal Allowance to £20k up from £12,600. That was one of Reform UK’s pledges which I really liked.

I’d never vote Tory again, lent my vote to Boris. Won’t trust them again plus I don’t rate Kemi Badenoch.

And Farage … I’m sorry but at this rate I think your Reform UK party might have peaked! If Labour keep doing sensible things (and finally listening to popular opinion) I’ll be voting for them at the next election. Credit where it’s due! 😮

Good on you FGT2 to give credit where it’s due! We certainly do need to spend more on defence. Other positives are the extra 2 million NHS appointments delivered (which I have personally benefitted from) and CBI on booming green economy creating more jobs.

OldFrill

PoliticsNerd

Ilovecheese

A tax on individuals whose net worth exceeds €100 million, something like what France has just brought in.

Can you tell me more or point me to relevant articles? TIA

Assume it's the French Wealth tax (2018) taxing owners with property exceeding €1.3million. It's been discussed in UK but so far, given experience in other countries, not considered worthwhile

Yes, that is the sort of thing I mean. I know that we always find excuses not to tax the wealthy, but maybe if in this case we could appeal to their patriotism as this time it is for defence, which would also benefit themselves. (not anything as unimportant as child poverty or cold pensioners)

AMVP

Overseas aid is by no means 'silly': not only is it humanitarian, it gains "soft power' for the UK and, furthermore ..... who, or what, will step into the breach? Take a look at a map illustrating China's current influence on the African continent: it's very sobering .

Yes, and why in that case are we still sending aid to China, or India for that matter. China have a tentacle approach to Africa, not sure it's a good thing.

I have to say, I was relieved to hear Starmer's reasonable tone yesterday, it's about time our politicians started to sound like adults again.

Now, if Isobel Oakeshott from Reform could just stop suggesting that poor families feed their children on porridge because it's so cheap, we might get back to sensible politics again!

Does the UK contribute a lot to basket weaving ,abroad?

They don't need to go that far. Just raising it to 14K or 15K would get my vote

And who, or what, steps into the overseas aid breach when we withdraw? Take a look at a map illustrating the current status of China's influence on the African continent: it's very sobering

Overseas aid is by no means 'silly': not only is it humanitarian, it gains "soft power' for the UK and, furthermore ..... who, or what, will step into the breach? Take a look at a map illustrating China's current influence on the African continent: it's very sobering .

When the threshold for tax is raised to £20k I'd consider eating my hat - never ever going to happen so my hat feels entirely safe

I think we can do without defenders of Boris. He was painfully slow to react to the dangers of Covid and allowed people to return from Covid-struck countries with no quarantine before re-entering the UK. He was just a good time boy who wanted to party and lied to Parliament about it afterwards.
His support for Ukraine was the only good thing about him and hopefully he is history now. His successors were so awful that they managed to make even him look good in some people's eyes.
Returning to the subject of the OP, Starmer had to do something about increasing defence expenditure in view of the latest circumstances. That's one example why, IMHO, manifestos are a waste of time.
Yes, we can argue about where the money should have come from but this is just a start. I think we can expect the next Budget to based on updated defence spending forecasts.

sazz1

People knocking Boris should remember he did a lot to help keep businesses going during the pandemic, including cost of living payments, furlow, eat out to help out etc. He seemed to care a lot about poorer people. Rishi wasn't too bad but was no good at negotiations. It was his way or the high way. But I did agree with his Rwanda project. Those who are horrified at this ask yourself
1 Are you happy with people drowning or suffocating to get here
2 Those with a spare room would you take in an illegal immigrant male with no paperwork to save the country paying hotel fees
3 are you happy with people born here sleeping in vans and tents while boat people are in hotels
4 Do you mind that these illegal immigrants get priority Dr, hospital and housing infront of us as they are classed as vulnerable
As for Starmer he seems to be targeting pensioners so not for me.

People died because of eat out to help out.

Personally I will NEVER vote for the Labour party again They are attractive to Tories now and my grandfather would be spinning in his grave if we hadn't cremated him

PoliticsNerd

Ilovecheese

A tax on individuals whose net worth exceeds €100 million, something like what France has just brought in.

Can you tell me more or point me to relevant articles? TIA

Assume it's the French Wealth tax (2018) taxing owners with property exceeding €1.3million. It's been discussed in UK but so far, given experience in other countries, not considered worthwhile

To be honest, I feel your nail salon chat will never come to fruition whilst the Labour government are in power. The main reason is because increasing the Personal Tax Allowance to £20,000 is giving far more money back to tax payers, than Rachel Reeves has taken away from Pensioners, following her last gesture of goodwill. However, if this is something she actually does, at least it will be one of the factual notes which can be incorporated within her CV.

As for Starmer he seems to be targeting pensioners so not for me.
Can you explain what you mean by this please? Is it stopping paying £200 to everyone over 66, or is there something more that makes you feel 'targeted'?