Well if Labour keep this up I think I’ll be voting for them at the next GE!

Fuel tax? Do you mean winter fuel allowance? Fuel tax is what you pay when buying petrol.

BevSec

Doodledog

Iam64

Growstuff makes a valid point about the partner, usually the woman, who never works outside the home, even when any children are no longer dependent. I suspect that confirms one of the points made by Doodledog

It does, thanks. Staying at home with babies and toddlers is very different from never working when they are at school and beyond.

This gets rehashed so often on here that I forget what I've said when .

Sorry your thread has gone off-topic, FGT.

I dont understand why you think that women should work if they can afford not to, regardless of having children or not.

I believe men and women should work. If they’re so wealthy they don’t need to do paid work, there are endless charities in need of volunteers.
The evidence on better mental health in people with productive lives is clear.
Why should growstuff’s partner lose half his pension towards his former wife who never worked for 40 years, including the 25 years after their children reached independence

Because unfortunately that’s the way assets are divided up on divorce nowadays. Don’t get me started on that.

Yes I know Barleyfields 😞

BevSec

Doodledog

BevSec

Iam64

Growstuff makes a valid point about the partner, usually the woman, who never works outside the home, even when any children are no longer dependent. I suspect that confirms one of the points made by Doodledog

I suppose they are fully entitled to do so if it can be afforded.

Everyone is fully entitled to do as they please, but IMO not entitled to expect others to pay for it.

I dont understand, why are others paying for someone to not work who can afford not to?

Others are paying for things like health, education, roads, defence, law and order etc - all the things that go with living in a civic society. They also pay for the credited NI contributions that are a form of deferred pension, currently worth up to £11500 or so a year. If children are spaced out in age, these payments can go on for years, and add up to a large sum. Those who pay tax and NI also contribute to benefits such as pension credit which go to those who have not contributed enough via their own contributions to get a full pension.

Being able to afford not to work takes none of that into account - it is a view limited to whether two people (and their children) can manage on one salary because only one of them pays income tax.

Iam64

BevSec

Doodledog

Iam64

Growstuff makes a valid point about the partner, usually the woman, who never works outside the home, even when any children are no longer dependent. I suspect that confirms one of the points made by Doodledog

It does, thanks. Staying at home with babies and toddlers is very different from never working when they are at school and beyond.

This gets rehashed so often on here that I forget what I've said when .

Sorry your thread has gone off-topic, FGT.

I dont understand why you think that women should work if they can afford not to, regardless of having children or not.

I believe men and women should work. If they’re so wealthy they don’t need to do paid work, there are endless charities in need of volunteers.
The evidence on better mental health in people with productive lives is clear.
Why should growstuff’s partner lose half his pension towards his former wife who never worked for 40 years, including the 25 years after their children reached independence

I didnt know that had happened to Growstuff, its a harsh situation to cope with, and she has my sympathies.

Doodledog

BevSec

Doodledog

BevSec

Iam64

Growstuff makes a valid point about the partner, usually the woman, who never works outside the home, even when any children are no longer dependent. I suspect that confirms one of the points made by Doodledog

I suppose they are fully entitled to do so if it can be afforded.

Everyone is fully entitled to do as they please, but IMO not entitled to expect others to pay for it.

I dont understand, why are others paying for someone to not work who can afford not to?

Others are paying for things like health, education, roads, defence, law and order etc - all the things that go with living in a civic society. They also pay for the credited NI contributions that are a form of deferred pension, currently worth up to £11500 or so a year. If children are spaced out in age, these payments can go on for years, and add up to a large sum. Those who pay tax and NI also contribute to benefits such as pension credit which go to those who have not contributed enough via their own contributions to get a full pension.

Being able to afford not to work takes none of that into account - it is a view limited to whether two people (and their children) can manage on one salary because only one of them pays income tax.

That is basically income tax you are specifying here in relation to someone who is not working. There are a myriad of other taxes we all pay, earning or not. Basically everything we buy which we are all paying tax on every time we buy a product or service. There is hardly anything non taxable.

That’s absolutely true, but Doodledog has made the point that taxes on expenditure are paid by the working spouse because they are the one who earned the money being spent.

Thank you, Barleyfields.

If a friend gives me the money to buy an item for her while I'm shopping, who has paid the tax on it?

Doodledog

Thank you, Barleyfields.

If a friend gives me the money to buy an item for her while I'm shopping, who has paid the tax on it?

Both of you if the Government has anything to do with it!

Sorry your thread has gone off-topic, FGT.

No apology needed Doodledog but kind of you to offer one. I’ve enjoyed just now catching up on this thread (some of which has gone above my head!).

It’s good that threads meander. Makes for an interesting discussion!

“There are a myriad of other taxes we all pay, earning or not. Basically everything we buy which we are all paying tax on every time we buy a product or service. There is hardly anything non taxable.”

Actually we’re not.
Our major costs, Rent, Rates, Mortgage, Food, Childrens clothes and others, heating fuel, gas, electric is low rate tax.

It's perfectly possible to lead a productive life without working.

Meaningful activity doesn't need to be paid or voluntary work in order to provide mental health and esteem benefits

Churchview

It's perfectly possible to lead a productive life without working.

Meaningful activity doesn't need to be paid or voluntary work in order to provide mental health and esteem benefits

Perfectly true, but what about when you need the benefits that paid work would entitle you to get?

I never thought I would think this after Starmer’s start but I actually think he is improving. Especially in his dealings with Trump. Thank the Lord.

nanna8

I never thought I would think this after Starmer’s start but I actually think he is improving. Especially in his dealings with Trump. Thank the Lord.

He isn’t improving. He’s always been good. It’s just that some people couldn’t see it….

I read the full BBC News feed and thought he's done as well as possibly could be expected, made his points on Gaza and a Ukraine Backstop and hopefully reassured vis a vis tariffs - we don't know how much Trump will "hear" but a cautious well done.

Churchview

It's perfectly possible to lead a productive life without working.

Meaningful activity doesn't need to be paid or voluntary work in order to provide mental health and esteem benefits

It is also possible to cruise through life sponging on society and doing nothing remotely gainful to support yourself and family.

My niece is one of those.

Yes, David, I think many of us know a person like that. To link it to the topic of the thread, I don't know what any government can do about this.
Such people are very unreliable employees, if they go as far as taking up a position, or they claim difficult to disprove disabilities, rendering them unfit for work. We can't let them or their families starve so we are stuck.
I can only imagine how infuriating this must be to folk with genuine disabilities , or those who are struggling to recover from events which have thrown them into unexpected difficulties.

I agree with Chocolatelovinggran and David49 about the individuals who ‘cruise through life sponging on society and doing nothing remotely positive to support yourself and your family’.
The government has pledged to reduce the numbers of people claiming disability benefits. Inevitably, this has led to outrage but I’d be pleased to see people claiming eg bad back/depression given support into work. I could write the book about the bad back who for example. runs a dance group, drives a minibus, earns on the black market and lives a busy, enjoyable life on higher benefits than others who lost their job through no fault of their own
I’m not hard hearted Hannah, of course we must have a safety net and I’m aware of the devasting impact of rheumatoid arthritis, depression etc but we do need to reduce the numbers claiming the higher sickness benefit with no intention of ever being in formal paid employment

So we're many men David49. They could be said to have "sponged" off the unpaid labour of wives who would certainly have enabled many men in their career.

Some seem to have forgotten the huge changes in the growth in first the playgroup movement, then child care, and statutory maternity leave during the 1970s and 80s. The later created and expectation of limited time as well as a payment for time caring for a child. It's structure also helped to move the age at which women have their children and whether the do actually have any. The attitude of society was also very different then too.

The women who had their children during this time would now make up the bulk of women pensioners and the bulk of those on Pension Credit - those dreadful "spongers" as some seem to see them. In 2023 Pension Credit went two-thirds to women, one-third to men. Perhaps some real research before attributing blame would help.

nanna8

I never thought I would think this after Starmer’s start but I actually think he is improving. Especially in his dealings with Trump. Thank the Lord.

Or you could be getting used to someone doing their job rather than offering circuses but no bread.

PoliticsNerd

So we're many men David49. They could be said to have "sponged" off the unpaid labour of wives who would certainly have enabled many men in their career.

Some seem to have forgotten the huge changes in the growth in first the playgroup movement, then child care, and statutory maternity leave during the 1970s and 80s. The later created and expectation of limited time as well as a payment for time caring for a child. It's structure also helped to move the age at which women have their children and whether the do actually have any. The attitude of society was also very different then too.

The women who had their children during this time would now make up the bulk of women pensioners and the bulk of those on Pension Credit - those dreadful "spongers" as some seem to see them. In 2023 Pension Credit went two-thirds to women, one-third to men. Perhaps some real research before attributing blame would help.

'Some' have specifically mentioned that there is a huge difference between being at home with babies and toddlers of maternity leave and playgroup age, and not working when children are older and at school all day. I don't think that 'some' have said or implied that people on PC are spongers either. Perhaps some real reading of the actual thread before misinterpreting what 'some' are saying would help.

A bit like the boomers thread, it's not helpful to corral people and all their compexities into these categories.
I'm afraid a friend of mine has a daughter who appears to thrive inspite of some odd life choices. But we never really know, do we.

Mollygo

Churchview

It's perfectly possible to lead a productive life without working.

Meaningful activity doesn't need to be paid or voluntary work in order to provide mental health and esteem benefits

Perfectly true, but what about when you need the benefits that paid work would entitle you to get?

My post was in response to Iam64's 17.52 post about the link between good mental health and working.

I wasn't advocating not working, but saying that people who don't work e.g. the retired or disabled could lead productive lives and that work is not the only route to good mental health.

To those saying it's possible to cruise through life on benefits I would just say that my dear brother is severely disabled and will never be able to work. He has to jump through hoops on a regular basis to obtain his benefits and the process is so stressful and arduous that, were I not to help him, he would be unable to achieve it. I can't imagine how people sail through the system on a life of benefits...it's not as easy as it looks from the outside.