Well if Labour keep this up I think I’ll be voting for them at the next GE!

I certainly don't think anyone cruises through life on benefits. I think it is very difficult to claim these days, and would find being constantly answerable very difficult.

I'm not sure about the links with MH either. I think that whereas in some cases having a fulfilling career is definitely good for MH and self-esteem, all too often a badly paid, low status and routine job will bring none of those benefits, and that shiftwork and long hours can be very difficult, both mentally and physically.

I think the lives that people tend to lead without ever having the structure of a job are generally not conducive to good mental health.

Barleyfields

I’m obviously very thick but I don’t understand how the US system works to cover a situation where the working spouse pays the tax the one at home might have paid had they been working. It seems just to be a way of filing one return instead of two. Obviously I haven’t studied it properly.

The US equivalent of healthcare contributions covering a spouse is the same as many private health insurance schemes here, which can cover family members.

No you're not thick, my explanation was not precise.

The USA income tax system merely has 4 categories of taxpayers Maried-joint, married filing separately, single, and head of household.

My idea is: more categories - I'd think a working spouses income could be used for taxes and NI of a non-working spouse.

The charts I linked show that to be true.

When this topic comes up I think to that system. We've lived with my brother in NYC, I worked for him, payed income tax, social security (their state pension), and medicare (medical care after 65 and medical care for all ages of poor people and some benefits regarding disability and children survivor benefits). We were also in the group health insurance policy as a work benefit.

No, medicare and medicade are quite different than private health insurance schemes here. Medicare is for over 65. There is a small portion for Medicaid (medical care for the poor, disabled, survivors under 18).

The health insurance they purchase under for 65 - is quite good in my experience, 92% of Americans have health insurance. I know we read news bits about their lack of adequate health care - we've been quite pleased with health care when living with my brother for a couple of months.

All I know is that since retiring I have been happier than when I was at work. I keep busy (possibly because of socialisation) but do what I want to do because I want to do it, as opposed to doing it because it’s Friday, and I prefer it that way.

If worklessness means poverty, and the need to report to others about how you spend your time then yes, I can see how MH might be affected.

Galaxy

I think the lives that people tend to lead without ever having the structure of a job are generally not conducive to good mental health.

I suppose a job represents a purpose in life and of course, a means to earn a living.

But, two things - for those who feel they have no stake in the society in which they live because all that's open to them is menial, dead-end jobs under which their meagre pay will mean an indefinite struggle for the basic necessities - you can kind of see why that structure might become fairly meaningless.

Of course, some will say, "well, they should better themselves and find a more rewarding job". Which is true, but that will depend on their level of education and the opportunities available. It was easier I think in the days before labour deregulation when there were jobs where you could start at the bottom and work your way up. I don't think there are many chances like that now, it's mostly contract work where you have a number of hours working for one company and have to make up the rest of those hours working for another.

The other 'thing' is that even with a good full-time job - one you enjoy that pays relatively well and gives you a good structure to your life - an illness, or a major family 'event' that throws you off kilter, can cause the whole pace of your life into tatters.

That happened to me. I won't go into details, but one moment my life, as a single parent, was balanced - good job, affordable child-care, disposable income, things to look forward to, plans for the future... the next moment it all came crashing down around me, due to an 'event' over which I had little to no control. And for a while (too long) I became one of those 'dependent on benefits'.

Fortunately, the timing of this was during an era and climate where the necessary 'help' was more available, and where there were more opportunities to get back-in-the-saddle. The 'good-life' was still a possibility - all it needed was a bit of effort on my part - and it all seemed well worthwhile. I had secure, rented (and affordable) accommodation in a 'desirable' location; the child-minder had become a friend; my GP was sympathetic (and I could always get an appointment with him); there were a number of relatively well-paid jobs available. Having fallen off the ladder, getting back on it again was comparatively easy.

If that had happened to me today, I think it would be a completely different story / outcome. Times have changed so much, globalisation, the deregulation of the labour market, the shortage of affordable rented accommodation; the paucity of meaningful, well-paid work; have all contributed to a sense of insecurity about all aspects of life where the future simply becomes a matter of 'getting-by' rather than living a structured life.

When I 'fell of the ladder' - I still had hope, today I think I would feel hopeless.

I suppose it is people who have never been on the ladder that I am thinking of, those for whom the ladder may as well be on the moon.
I suppose I also dont think people have to always want to 'progress', as we saw in covid many of the jobs which were vital to society's functioning were the non progression type
I think we should be paying decent wages and address the horrendous housing situation ( which to give her credit I think Rayner is quietly and with some level of efficiency getting on with, according to the housing bods I know).
But yes I think people need to work because I mostly think what happens is those who dont live lives of chaos, which ends up providing careers for the middle class who support them in a variety of ways!

Galaxy

I suppose it is people who have never been on the ladder that I am thinking of, those for whom the ladder may as well be on the moon.
I suppose I also dont think people have to always want to 'progress', as we saw in covid many of the jobs which were vital to society's functioning were the non progression type
I think we should be paying decent wages and address the horrendous housing situation ( which to give her credit I think Rayner is quietly and with some level of efficiency getting on with, according to the housing bods I know).
But yes I think people need to work because I mostly think what happens is those who dont live lives of chaos, which ends up providing careers for the middle class who support them in a variety of ways!

I suppose it is people who have never been on the ladder that I am thinking of, those for whom the ladder may as well be on the moon.

That's something else - and something I can't quite comprehend. I know it's very nice as a retiree to get up in the morning and know that your time is your own and you are free to do those things that interest you (though as a full-time carer for my disabled partner that time for me is somewhat limited!) - but that's quite a different thing to being young and having the energy of youth, or comparative youth, and doing... well, what?... with your life?! I wonder what the structure is (excluding those obviously who are disabled) of a life intentionally perhaps, devoid of a commitment to work?

I think we should be paying decent wages and address the horrendous housing situation ...

Wholeheartedly agree, having had the benefit of decent housing and wages, and the security that gives you.

I can understand someone deciding they were not going to work if they were determined to re-invent the wheel or explore the outer reaches of some unknown territory that no-one had ever heard of - if they were on a mission, they would be doing something with an end point - but even then, they'd need funding... but to simply drift through life. It's not something I can understand.

Do you think those who don't work just live chaotic lives? It's not something I've really thought about. And I don't know anyone in this situation.

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Galaxy But yes I think people need to work because I mostly think what happens is those who dont live lives of chaos

How would someone not working possibly be chaotic?

Norah

Galaxy But yes I think people need to work because I mostly think what happens is those who dont live lives of chaos

How would someone not working possibly be chaotic?

It’s not compulsory but I know some that make chaos and uselessness an art form

Withdrawn by GNHQ - quotes a deleted post.

Agreed Doodledog. And PN, I assume you have heard of contraception, which enables one to control the period over which children are born (or not) pretty accurately? Certainly worked well for me.

Also, I am the one who said that I don't equate work with good MH. I think there are many jobs where the reverse is probably true - in fact I think that many who say that work is good in and of itself are those in satisfying jobs that give them validation.

As I said earlier, if you bothered to read my posts instead of shooting from the hip, you might understand what I'm saying, even if the thought that someone on the Internet disagrees with you is difficult.

Work gives you a reason to get out of bed if you’re in a bad place. From that pov it’s good for MH, gives a structure to the day and some self esteem. I speak from experience.

I do generally equate work with all sorts of positive things and am quite happy to stand by it.
It may be very boring but the things that equate to good mental health tend to be quite 'worthy'. Community, exercise, contribution to society, etc etc.
I am afraid I think the idea that not working (for your whole life) is a good thing falls into the 'luxury belief category.

Doodledog

Also, I am the one who said that I don't equate work with good MH. I think there are many jobs where the reverse is probably true - in fact I think that many who say that work is good in and of itself are those in satisfying jobs that give them validation.

As I said earlier, if you bothered to read my posts instead of shooting from the hip, you might understand what I'm saying, even if the thought that someone on the Internet disagrees with you is difficult.

I think you make a good point here, it makes all the difference in the world if work is fulfilling and rewarding. dd2 loves her work so much she misses it when on holiday.

Barleyfields

Work gives you a reason to get out of bed if you’re in a bad place. From that pov it’s good for MH, gives a structure to the day and some self esteem. I speak from experience.

True, for some people.

They are easy targets aren't they, the poor, the vulnerable, the depressed, those in chronic pain.

I was, and continue to be, ‘the depressed’ glasshalffullagain. Clinically depressed, but with a serious work ethic.

I’m one of those people Galaxy refers to, who was paid a salary to attempt to support families where it was often 4 generations since any member of the family went out to work. The experience confirmed how tough life is for those with mental or physical health problems.
I did tire of being told “‘working’s a mugs game”. Often the children in these families were largely out of education by year 9. The absence of routines or active parents …….

Anneliese Dodds has stepped down from her Ministerial role over Keir Starmer’s decision to cut aid budget to (his words) put the money into defence instead.

I disagree with her stance but admire her for putting her money where her mouth is as she steps down to the backbenches. A rare show of moral probity. Well done Ms Dodds for having the courage of your convictions.

Another plus (for me) regards Labour.

Agree with you FGT that Dodds acted in her beliefs and principles. I’d have preferred to see her work with the reality

“

Anneliese Dodds
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It is with sadness that I have had to tender my resignation as Minister for International Development and for Women and Equalities.

While I disagree with the ODA decision, I continue to support the government and its determination to deliver the change our country needs.”

Iam64

I’m one of those people Galaxy refers to, who was paid a salary to attempt to support families where it was often 4 generations since any member of the family went out to work. The experience confirmed how tough life is for those with mental or physical health problems.
I did tire of being told “‘working’s a mugs game”. Often the children in these families were largely out of education by year 9. The absence of routines or active parents …….

I did tire of being told “‘working’s a mugs game”. Often the children in these families were largely out of education by year 9. The absence of routines or active parents …….

Yes, I heard that many years ago from an individual who appeared to think those around him should be in awe of him as some kind of rebel. When it was pointed out to him that the things he enjoyed, the food he ate, the clothes he wore, were the product of the efforts of these 'mugs', he said something like "more fool them then" (it was a long time ago and I can't remember exactly). But you can't debate with stupid.

It was in a hospital ward - he was a visitor to the patient in the next bed to mine. There were no curtains around the bed and I remember him sitting there with one leg cockily crossed over the other as he, in some detail, expounded on how he got this, that and the other benefit, whilst slurping from a can of drink.

I remember wondering how on earth he managed to get all those benefits because from a couple of people I've known who genuinely were unable to work (at the time - and it was a very long time ago) - you have to jump through hoops.

Many moons ago, my partner (before I met him) was made redundant - it was pre-internet days, and he took with him to the office that dealt with the unemployed dozens and dozens of copies of job applications he'd made - which had been demanded of him as part of the process of obtaining unemployment benefit.

So just how do the professionally unemployed manage it?

Fortunately my partner a couple of days later saw an advert for a position up in Yorkshire in a field in which he was well-versed, jumped in his car, drove up there, and got the job. Which was fortunate for me because that company eventually moved him down South to the office in which I was 'temping', and that's where I met him. He's still got those job application letters stored away somewhere. I don't think he received any replies - nor did he draw any benefits in fact. He said it was a really demeaning experience, the questions endless, and the 'attitude' of those interviewing him could be intimidating sometimes.

I simply don't understand how one generation after another can remain unemployed... or are they, basically, unemployable?

I wish I knew how they do it, Dickens. Do they even get any interviews, which with their attitude means they automatically fail? Those who have no qualifications, skills or even work experience must, coupled with that attitude, must surely be unemployable. Their benefits won’t be withdrawn or they would be on the streets and starving - and so it carries on.

I am not criticising people who have careers supporting those in chaos/crisis, I am one of those people, but lately that dynamic has made me think a lot about how we as a society function.