Trump/Zelensky interview in the White House

As my husband pointed out, you can’t mine for rare metals in a war zone. You have to have peace first. Perhaps Trump really can’t see the point of an extended war in Ukraine. Concessions will have to be made so why not sooner than later?

ronib

Is there a saying “he who pays the piper calls the tune”?Mamie I seem to have running arguments along the lines of if something is unaffordable, don’t buy it. Then the reply comes back - we can take out a loan. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect another country to finance another’s battles in such an open ended fashion. Trump suggested that Z was not actively looking for a peaceful solution because he was expecting Trump to stand by his country? Effectively expecting Trump to enable Z to continue with this war without any end in sight?
If this was happening here in the UK, I would hope for some indication that after 3 years and many dead young soldiers some compromise could be found and quite quickly. If this means making concessions then so be it.

So you would compromise with the invading force.

Not forgetting that the UK’s last payment to the US was made on 29 December 2006 for WW11, I would think once Ukraine’s mining industry is up and running for rare earth which technology is crying out for, all these loans for helping in the war will be repaid more quickly.

Is there a saying “he who pays the piper calls the tune”?Mamie I seem to have running arguments along the lines of if something is unaffordable, don’t buy it. Then the reply comes back - we can take out a loan. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect another country to finance another’s battles in such an open ended fashion. Trump suggested that Z was not actively looking for a peaceful solution because he was expecting Trump to stand by his country? Effectively expecting Trump to enable Z to continue with this war without any end in sight?
If this was happening here in the UK, I would hope for some indication that after 3 years and many dead young soldiers some compromise could be found and quite quickly. If this means making concessions then so be it.

They were the Soviet Union's nuclear arms, left there when Russia left.

Zelensky wants the war to stop, that’s why he was in America to sign the rare earth mining rights but he also wanted it to be linked to America helping Ukraine’s freedom against the threats and possible invasion from Russia.
Trump just wants the mining rights, the step to help Ukraine will follow but with no date (if ever).
The Ukraine gave up nuclear arms in the 90s on the understanding it would bring peace but it hasn’t.

ronib

Everything which has happened so far has been planned in advance I guess. I can remember Trump being quite emphatic a few months ago that America wants the war in Ukraine to stop.
Perhaps the message just wasn’t clear enough to Zelensky and the pretty outlandish interview was a last ditch attempt to drum it home. It’s entirely human not to want to listen to bad news so Zelensky is having a very difficult time fully understanding the implications of Trump’s second term.

Or perhaps Zelensky thinks it isn't up to Trump to decide that he should stop fighting to defend his country from invasion?
Would you have the same view of an invasion of the UK?

I'm glad you say this, NotSpaghetti, as I tendvto agree about the difficulty of translation.
I don't think Zelensky expected to be ambushed as he was, otherwise he might have had a translator with him. Not because his English is poor by any means, but because those nuances are full of pit-falls.
One example was, when DT said, " I hold all the cards here," meaning "I'm in charge, I'm make the decisions here", Zelensky replied, "I am not playing with cards". The answer was a bit simplistic for what was needed, and as you suggest, due to his command of the language, unfortunately lacked the punch needed to reply to the bullies.

But, yes, it was totally unacceptable and rude of Trump, Vance, and Co to behave like that.

Everything which has happened so far has been planned in advance I guess. I can remember Trump being quite emphatic a few months ago that America wants the war in Ukraine to stop.
Perhaps the message just wasn’t clear enough to Zelensky and the pretty outlandish interview was a last ditch attempt to drum it home. It’s entirely human not to want to listen to bad news so Zelensky is having a very difficult time fully understanding the implications of Trump’s second term.

If Trump had been a statesman he would have cut Vance off, smoothed things with Zelenskyy, and the whole thing would be done

I agree about the nuance of language and a statesman would allow for that and would have done as you say.

Re UN saying must give Trump credit ...fine but as above Trump needs to make allowance for language; to treat others with the respect that he and his Vice President are demanding.

However the problems arose, lost in translation or whatever the reason, it was a deliberate humiliation of another Head of State and a totally unacceptable way to behave.
It was ill-mannered and boorish. But not wholly unexpected from two such arrogant men, both unsuited for high office.

I have watched the whole 49½ minutes of this and though it starts OK, and Zelenskyy "let's things go" it deteriorated (in my opinion) when he tried to explain some of the facts about previous "deals" - mainly trying to explain to Vance.

Zelenskyy, of course, has great English but the nuance is that of a person whose 1st language is not English. If Trump had been a statesman he would have cut Vance off, smoothed things with Zelenskyy, and the whole thing would be done. The nuance is often missed in another language... I'm sure it happens to all of us.

My Swedish relatives (who have regularly dome business in the UK and have terrific English) still often don’t quite "get" something as I intend it
It takes a moment yo backtrack, explain and clarify. My Italian is often not quite picking up the whole meaning of someone and my friend who has been living in a part of Greece which is still entirely Greek speaking says she often "hears things in a different tone" to that which is intended.

I think it could have been straightforward to bring this back from disaster... but Zelenskyy's language skills are lacking some nuance, and Trump and Vance are both too thin skinned to accept any criticism (even of a previous regime- eg Obama) and have ears that do not want to listen.

We're now hearing from Nato Secretary General Mark Rutte, who tells the BBC he has spoken with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky twice following the White House meeting.
He says he is "not at liberty to say what was discussed" but shares that he told Zelensky "we have to respect" what Trump has done for Ukraine so far.
Speaking to the BBC, he says Zelensky must "find a way" to restore his relationship with his US counterpart Donald Trump after the two clashed in the White House.
He adds that during Trump's first administration - from 2017 to 2020 - the US approved the sale of the Javelin anti-tank missile system which enabled Ukraine to "fight back" when Russia launched its full-scale invasion in 2022.
"We really have to give Trump credit," Rutte adds.

Just on bbc news website.

After being asked to leave the White House, President Zelenskykept his appointment with Fox News last night.

Video link:https://www.foxnews.com/video/6369462611112

I may have missed a previous post in my scan of the last 14 pages, subsequent search for the attached link and having to reset my password for Gransnet yet again but here goes: blog.sciencemuseum.org.uk/winston-churchill-style-icon-and-inventor-of-the-onesie/
"Churchill wore one of these suits on a visit to the White House, Washington, in December 1941. At a press conference that week,Mrs Rooseveltdeclared she was having one made for her husband." Re the allegation that the White House surmised displeasure at Mr Zelenskii's style of dress.... BTW did anyone else register the 'uniform' of blue suits, white shirts and red ties....? Would someone like Mr Nehru in his day have been criticized for his choice of clothing?

Poor President Zelensky. So many Ukrainians dead and large parts of his country in ruins. Him and his country did nothing to warrant any of it but he received such despicable treatment from Trump & Vance.

Well I can hardly believe that a meeting supposedly about bringing about peace got caught up in the supposed niceties of what clothing was being worn!!

I have watched the entire press conference. Effectively Zilenski didn't "play the game" of stroking giant egos endlessly and patting arms and hugging and fist punching and general "boys will be boys" rubbish .... and this resulted in Trump and Vance having a tantrum. Which may have been their plan all along. And it is patently clear that Zilensky is never going to be the "ego stroking kinda guy" that Trump wants!

He's been leading a country at war for several years; why would he waste time indulging this rubbish; he wants a peace that will last and quite understandably does not trust Putin
which is what he was trying to explain when the double ego team got going with a vengeance!!

Nevertheless as I posted further up Zelensky just this morning said

"it’s “crucial” for Ukraine to have President Donald Trump’s backing and expressed his gratitude to the US on Saturday, a day after Trump and Vice President JD Vance berated him in the Oval Office.

Zelensky also said Kyiv is ready to sign the minerals agreement he had traveled to the US to hammer out before the highly public diplomatic breakdown"

However:

He said that Ukraine is ready to sign the minerals agreement that he had traveled to the US to hammer out, but noted that “it’s not enough
We need more than just that. A ceasefire without security guarantees is dangerous for Ukraine. We’ve been fighting for three years, and Ukrainian people need to know that America is on our side,” Zelensky said"

(CNN news feed.)

This afternoon Zelensky is meeting with Starmer and tomorrow with European leaders.

Lionel Barber, Financial Times reporting in to LBC was saying Starmer did well. He then added that there has been some very disturbing news out of Washington late last night. "The American Cyber Command, under the auspices of Pete Hesketh, Defence Secretary, is now, apparently, withdrawing a lot of digital assets, the cyber capacity targeted on Russia an intelligence gathering. If they withdraw that from Ukraine, then Ukraine is even more naked at the negotiating table than we saw yesterday, which was utterly brutal."

They went on to discuss whether Musk would withdraw his Starlink. Hesketh said "Ukraine is so dependent on military technology from the US and Musk."

He then went off topic and commented on Musk parading his son in the oval office while not wearing a suit and tie.

AuntieE

Allira

Another poster mentioned that Trump was annoyed at Mr Zelenzyy's lack of formal dress at the White House.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy was advised to wear a suit to the White House and Donald Trump was offended when he didn't, according to reports.
As Mr Trump shook Mr Zelenskyy's hand at the entrance to the West Wing, he said: "He is all dressed up today."
Then, during the disastrous press conference, Brian Glenn, who is the chief White House correspondent for right-wing website Real America's Voice, asked Mr Zelenskyy why he doesn't wear a suit and accused him of having a lack of respect for America.

Have they forgotten about the type of attire Musk wears in the White House?
I can't post a picture but there's a typical one in the link below.

www.brecorder.com/news/40350444/ultimatum-to-federal-workers-raises-tensions-between-musk-white-house-staff
I suppose Musk is in charge of the whole kit and caboodle, though, so can please himself.

Trump may have been offended by Zelinsky not wearing a suit, and Zelinsky may have been advised to do so - I do not know about either point.

What I clearly remember is fairly soon after the Russians had been pushed back from Kiev in 2022 some journalist or other did ask Zelinsky if he was not going to dress more formally, and got the reply that as long as Ukraine is at war, President Zelinsky answered he intended to wear much the same gear as the soldiers at the front.

Trump may not know this, and most of the world may have forgotten it, but I feel fairly certain that Ukraine's soldiers and the bereaved families of those who have lost family members in this war, remember him saying this.

Yes, exactly : both posters.

It was very distressing to watch and listen too, we all know Trump is a narcissistic bully, but now we know that Vance is just as bad. Play ground Bully boy tactics, the finger pointing too was extremely rude. This asking for the return of the aid money that was giving to the Ukraine , when it was given in good grace by another administration and the country is still fighting is totally uncalled for. Then Trump turned to the camera and said " I bet that made good TV" but are surprised not really.

Silverbrooks

Maybee. Thanks for the link:

Here's the text from the "Mooch's" tweet:

Here is a recap of the Ukraine situation, for those choosing to reject propaganda and continue seeking truth:

December 1994, Ukraine agrees to give up its nuclear arsenal in return for security guarantees from the US, UK, France, China and Russia.

February 2014, Russia invades and subsequently annexes Crimea, President Obama does next to nothing. War through weakness.

July 2019, Trump admin withholds $250 million in military aid to Ukraine to apply pressure to investigate alleged corruption by Hunter and Joe Biden.

February 2022, Russia invades a weakened Ukraine, world expects Zelenskyy to flee and Kyiv to fall within days. Ukrainians fight bravely for 3+ years, inflict hundreds of thousands of casualties on Russian army, weaken Putin politically.

U.S. has sent ~$70 billion in outdated military equipment to Ukraine since start of war, providing opportunity for U.S. military to modernize its weaponry. We’ve sent an additional $30+ billion in budget support, $75 billion in ancillary appropriations related to war.

~50,000 Ukrainians have died defending their homeland, protecting U.S. and Western interests in the process. Meanwhile, the U.S. President and V.P. are calling democratically-elected Zelenskyy a dictator and berating him in Oval Office in pursuit of a financial payoff.

The U.S. should be thanking Ukrainians, who have fought for our common interests with only modest financial support from a country with a ~$30 trillion GDP.

America can and will reclaim its backbone again soon, with better policy and messaging from common sense moderates.

^Slava Ukraina.^

Thanks for that. I know people don’t like clicking on links but for some reason couldn’t copy it. I wonder what Scaramuccis feelings are about the Republicans now Although he hated Trump he still supported the party. I was so ignorant about the events leading up to this war. Just goes to show that you give Putin an inch and he takes a mile.

Allira

Another poster mentioned that Trump was annoyed at Mr Zelenzyy's lack of formal dress at the White House.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy was advised to wear a suit to the White House and Donald Trump was offended when he didn't, according to reports.
As Mr Trump shook Mr Zelenskyy's hand at the entrance to the West Wing, he said: "He is all dressed up today."
Then, during the disastrous press conference, Brian Glenn, who is the chief White House correspondent for right-wing website Real America's Voice, asked Mr Zelenskyy why he doesn't wear a suit and accused him of having a lack of respect for America.

Have they forgotten about the type of attire Musk wears in the White House?
I can't post a picture but there's a typical one in the link below.

www.brecorder.com/news/40350444/ultimatum-to-federal-workers-raises-tensions-between-musk-white-house-staff
I suppose Musk is in charge of the whole kit and caboodle, though, so can please himself.

Trump may have been offended by Zelinsky not wearing a suit, and Zelinsky may have been advised to do so - I do not know about either point.

What I clearly remember is fairly soon after the Russians had been pushed back from Kiev in 2022 some journalist or other did ask Zelinsky if he was not going to dress more formally, and got the reply that as long as Ukraine is at war, President Zelinsky answered he intended to wear much the same gear as the soldiers at the front.

Trump may not know this, and most of the world may have forgotten it, but I feel fairly certain that Ukraine's soldiers and the bereaved families of those who have lost family members in this war, remember him saying this.

The Economist (my preferred news source).

"WHEN VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY arrived at the White House on February 28th the America-Ukrainian relationship was fragile and uncertain. By the time the Ukrainian president left, it was shattered. After a full-blown shouting match in front of the television cameras—with Donald Trump and his vice-president, J.D. Vance, furiously accusing the Ukrainian leader of being ungrateful and of risking a third world war—Mr Zelensky will return home more embattled than ever. Hopes for a peace deal seem more distant than ever.

The breakdown in relations, and Mr Trump’s contention that Ukraine was not ready for peace, raises the risk that his administration will now cut off military and financial aid to Ukraine at a time when Russia retains the initiative on the battlefield. It is hard to think of a diplomatic moment that has gone so totally awry in recent history.

“I’m not aligned with anybody. I’m aligned with the United States of America,” Mr Trump explained, sitting in the Oval Office alongside Mr Zelensky, Mr Vance and several aides. The American president offered to take another question, and Mr Vance interjected. He suggested that “what makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That’s what President Trump is doing.”

At this point Mr Zelensky might perhaps have flattered and cajoled Mr Trump, a course of action favoured by other recent visitors to Mr Trump’s White House including Emmanuel Macron of France and Sir Keir Starmer of Britain. Instead he recited a history of the conflict stretching back to 2014 and noted that Vladimir Putin had broken past deals. “What kind of diplomacy, J.D., are you speaking about?” Mr Zelensky asked in imperfect but clearly sardonic English. This played straight into the hands of Mr Vance, who had doubtless intended all along to attack and humiliate Mr Zelensky.

Mr Zelensky had gone to Washington with two principal tasks: to protect Ukraine’s war effort with a continued flow of weapons, and to lay the basis for a peace deal that will last. Ukraine rightly believes that a ceasefire without credible Western-backed security guarantees is a trap that would allow Russia to rearm, and destabilise Ukraine internally. Mr Zelensky said as much: “We will never accept just a ceasefire.” But it was the wrong time to have that discussion with America’s leaders.

“I think it’s disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media right now,” the vice-president shot back. He then attacked Ukraine for “forcing conscripts to the frontlines” and, when asked by Mr Zelensky whether he had visited Ukraine, dismissed visits by other international leaders to the country as nothing more than “propaganda tour[s]”.

Going into the meeting, hopes had been raised that frosty relations between the two leaders had somewhat thawed. At his press conference with Sir Keir Starmer a day earlier, Mr Trump denied having referred to Mr Zelensky as a dictator. The Ukrainian leader was, on the contrary, “very brave”, someone he had “a lot of respect for”. There was a deal almost to be signed for joint mineral exploitation. Before the talks began, a European official in Kyiv dared to hope: “We want them to leave smiling,” he said.

During the Vance-Zelensky scuffle, Mr Trump initially appeared almost passive, the good cop to Mr Vance’s bad cop. Then Mr Zelensky went too far. “During the war, everybody has problems,” he asserted. With a “nice ocean” America was insulated for now “but you will feel it in the future.”

Mr Trump plainly did not like that. “Don’t tell us what we’re gonna feel,” he snarled, as the summit meeting tipped into catastrophe. He then added that Ukraine was in a bad place and was “gambling with world war three”. He warned that “what you’re doing is very disrespectful to this country.” Mr Vance jumped in to helpfully remind the president that Mr Zelensky had appeared with Democrats in Pennsylvania during last year’s campaign, and told the visitor to show more appreciation to his benefactors. Mr Trump’s anger deepened.

It wasn’t long before Mr Trump was rambling about Hunter Biden, the son of the former president, and pointing out that he had provided Ukraine with Javelins when Barack Obama had refused to provide lethal aid. The president lamented, “it’s going to be a very hard thing to do business like this,” and continued to belittle Mr Zelensky and his country.

Mr Macron, France’s president, had visited Washington on February 24th; Sir Keir did so on the 27th. Both trips were viewed in Europe as successes: each leader pressed Mr Trump on the issue of security guarantees, and both meetings ended on encouragingly upbeat terms. But the blow-up on February 28th has already caused deep alarm in European capitals. Donald Tusk, Poland’s prime minister, promptly issued a message of solidarity with Ukraine: “Dear [Zelensky], dear Ukrainian friends, you are not alone”. Almost every significant European leader followed suit.

Europe’s leaders are due to meet in London on March 2nd to co-ordinate their positions on a potential military deployment to Ukraine after any ceasefire, and how to pay for higher defence spending—talks that now have far greater urgency. But there is no question that America remains central to Ukraine’s war effort. Although Europe provides the majority of aid, 60% to America’s 40% on one estimate, Ukraine relies on American air-defence interceptors, as well as a flow of intelligence and spare parts for American weaponry.

Meanwhile, in Moscow, there was unalloyed glee. “The insolent pig finally got a proper slap down in the Oval Office,” enthused Dmitry Medvedev, the deputy chairman of Russia’s security council. “The Kiev regime is ‘gambling with WWIII’.”

“It’s amazing what comes out through emotion,” Mr Trump posted on social media shortly after the fight. He added that Mr Zelensky was “not ready for Peace” and chided the Ukrainian for disrespecting America: “He can come back when he is ready for Peace.” A scheduled press conference was cancelled, and Mr Zelensky left the White House early, without having signed the mineral-rights deal that had ostensibly brought him to Washington in the first place.

The road ahead for Ukraine is now unclear, but strewn with danger. It seems likely that internal and external actors will increase the pressure on Mr Zelensky to resign, hold elections or both—though how that can happen during wartime without cancelling martial law and thus tipping the country into chaos is not clear. “Getting into a dialogue with Trump in this way doesn’t leave him a chance,” says an opposition MP in Ukraine. “He is going to have to destroy Zelensky now. I worry the price will be our whole country.”

Even deputies from Mr Zelensky’s inner circle agreed that it had been a disaster. Some reasoned the president had been tired, three years into war and a long transatlantic flight. He had been provoked into a manufactured fight. “J.D. was the problem,” said one of them. “Zelensky had to show strength to be credible for negotiations, but the emotions were too much.” A senior Ukrainian security source said Mr Vance seemed to be pleased that the negotiations never even happened. “As a wrecker, Vance had been well prepared,” he says. “He did his thing professionally.”

At the end of the shouting match, Mr Trump quipped, “This is gonna be great television.” The president of Ukraine scowled as he sat with his hands clasped. Mr Vance smirked. His work was done.

I suspect this was carefully planned in advance by Trump and Vance in the hope that they could come out looking reasonable and Zelinsky as an impossible person who just would not listen.

Their behaviour was dispicable - after all you do not invite a guest and then talk to him as if he were a naughty little boy.

Unfortunately, Zelinsky seemed to be very tired and totally unprepared for this treatment and unfortunately interupted both the others in his attempts to answer their statements. Fortunately, this does not seem to have harmed him in the eyes of most European politicians. He had every justification to be furious in my estimation, but would have done better if he had been able to treat the situation more diplomatically.

I am truly thankful that he left without signing the mineral's deal, as Trump has made it clear he will not give any assurances regarding Ukraine's future.

At last we see Trump for what he is - a man who wants power and thinks he will get it by an allaince with Russia, China, and who knows who else? He apparently is not statesman enough to know that Russia, whether ruled by Putin, or by whoever suceeds him when that day comes, is only interested in furthering Russia's interests and not in keeping friendly relations with as much of the rest of the world as possible.

Trump may believe he is acting in the USA's best interests, certainly he seems to have convinced a great many Americans of that, but I doubt that USA is his primary concern. Trump wants to be the Great Man of the Hour and apparently things that what he wants is right.