New Leaders of the Free World

Yes, it was one of the anti-EU tropes that emerged as a negative back in the day. It never really had traction but ironically is now being resurrected by those outside the EU, including us!

I'm against it, but do think we should help build up a multi-national defence alliance to defend NATO and our common heritage and interests in Europe, and maybe even other countries outside such as Canada.

One thing Putin got wrong (among many others!) was that Europe would not support Ukraine, and would split following Brexit. He seriously under-estimated the strength of our alliances and is now floundering around with Trump on his 'side'. Putin doesn't understand democracy or free-speech.

Yes, it was one of the anti-EU tropes that emerged as a negative back in the day. It never really had traction but ironically is now being resurrected by those outside the EU, including us!

Indeed. I recall one Brexit voter when we were talking about this point, telling me that we didn’t need any sort of EU co-ordinated defence as we had NATO.

Who could have guessed that NATO would let us down at a critical moment.

The concept of a European Army has been rumbling around for years

One of the main reasons I voted for Brexit.
At the time it looked like being used for attack, and not defence.

^Who could have guessed that NATO would let us down at a critical moment.

^

In what way do you think it is letting us doen.
Though it is coming across, to me at least, as being weak in the current situation.

NATO is highly dependent on the US for arms and intelligence.

In case you hadn’t noticed the US is in the middle of a coup with a president who sees everything in terms of financial deals and other countries ‘using’ the US to the disadvantage of the US who doesn't appear to be sane and whonfavours Russia. Trump can cut off the flow of weapons to Ukraine and the rest of the NATO countries would struggle to make up for the shortfall.

Think I'd rather have Talking Heads than a liar and and a madman.

We would at present, but Putin is far from being a strong force and getting weaker by the month, so we do have time to build up a European cooperative force for our future defence.

I was impressed by Starmer this morning on Laura Kuenssbergs show. Piers Morgan was strangely reassuring too

Well I think now is the time for all European leaders, regardless of how weak or self serving they appeared to some of the electorate before, to stand up and show what they are made of.
These dark days will not be for the faint hearted 🙄

Timmerman’s said on the TRIP podcast that Europe should be at the table rather than the menu in Putin’s and Trumps eyes.

Timmerman’s went on to say that Europe is only on the menu since Brexit.

It is time the U.K. stepped up to the plate.

In the event that we have to have a European army, it bothers me whether there will be the inevitable in-fighting about who has the biggest chair at the table. NATO was founded on the premise that the top general (SACEUR - Supreme Allied Commander Europe) would always be an American. If they pull out, future the “command cake” will presumably have to be shared on some basis. That’ll be interesting!

MaizieD

NATO is highly dependent on the US for arms and intelligence.

In case you hadn’t noticed the US is in the middle of a coup with a president who sees everything in terms of financial deals and other countries ‘using’ the US to the disadvantage of the US who doesn't appear to be sane and whonfavours Russia. Trump can cut off the flow of weapons to Ukraine and the rest of the NATO countries would struggle to make up for the shortfall.

I suppose, rightly or wrongly, I have never seen NATO as being American.

Greyduster

In the event that we have to have a European army, it bothers me whether there will be the inevitable in-fighting about who has the biggest chair at the table. NATO was founded on the premise that the top general (SACEUR - Supreme Allied Commander Europe) would always be an American. If they pull out, future the “command cake” will presumably have to be shared on some basis. That’ll be interesting!

Very interesting - I don't know if the military - with all their experience working in co-operation in Europe in NATO will get a say in the future or not.

Oh we’ll certainly get a say - they can’t leave us out. We pay more than almost everyone else and our military expertise is second to none. If we were to be shut out (unthinkable in anyone’s language) Europe would be worse off. As someone said upthread, we have nuclear capacity also. Interesting times.

fancythat

MaizieD

NATO is highly dependent on the US for arms and intelligence.

In case you hadn’t noticed the US is in the middle of a coup with a president who sees everything in terms of financial deals and other countries ‘using’ the US to the disadvantage of the US who doesn't appear to be sane and whonfavours Russia. Trump can cut off the flow of weapons to Ukraine and the rest of the NATO countries would struggle to make up for the shortfall.

I suppose, rightly or wrongly, I have never seen NATO as being American.

You only have to listen to the leadership of NATO to know who is their boss.

Greyduster

Oh we’ll certainly get a say - they can’t leave us out. We pay more than almost everyone else and our military expertise is second to none. If we were to be shut out (unthinkable in anyone’s language) Europe would be worse off. As someone said upthread, we have nuclear capacity also. Interesting times.

I was wondering if the US military in NATO would "have a say" to the USA government.

They have worked so closely with Europe for so long and presumably relationships are long standing.

There’s a great deal of respect between military personnel of all ranks in all the NATO nations. I’m sure the top brass at SHAPE and Allied Joint Forces Command are scratching their heads and wondering what’s going to happen next the same as everyone else is, but how much influence they have at home is another matter.

Under the present US President, the US military at any level on any subject will be totally ignored and probably sacked unless they tell President Trump exactly what he wants to hear.

Yes, a lot of NATO member armies use standardised US equipment, but if we have the money Trump will sell us the goods. In the meanwhile NATO armies are moving towards buying standardised equipment from other countries.

We need to remember that there is no NATO defensive force or a centralised European force. The NATO and European force consists of all the individual national armies of NATO members. But they are used to working together.

While there are many armies in the world bigger than the armies of the individual NATO armies, there seems to be a general consensus that the best trained and most effective armies in the world are all European. The US army is seen to be like the curates egg, good in parts.

Either way, the European armies working in concert, can out perform the Russian army. Once considered an effective army, following its performance in Ukraine, it doesn't even feature in the top 20.

Who would lead a NATO with out the US? probably France or Brtain as we are the 2 countries with nuclear weapons, although, I think, eventually it will be a revolving chair among all members.

I would say that currently SHAPE and Allied Joint Forces Command are having daily meetings with their respective Defence Ministers, and each other.

I do agree with your post monica

Starmer has stated that Europe has got the beginning of a four point plan for peace. I bet 100% that Trump rejects it.

His ego simply won’t allow that to happen.

Whitewavemark2

Starmer has stated that Europe has got the beginning of a four point plan for peace. I bet 100% that Trump rejects it.

His ego simply won’t allow that to happen.

Am pretty sure that seeing all those Europeans - oh and a Canadian - gathered together today at the Summit, with Zelenskyy receiving such a warm welcome, as well as dashing off to see King Charlie, will have Trump and Vance absolutely seething.
Trump thinks he has got it sewn up with Putin, but quelle surprise in Europe they decided to actually include Zelenskyy in the peace talks.
I predict a flurry of childish put downs from the White House.

Yes, Europe has a long struggle on its hands I think. I just hope it’s got the stomach.

I doubt very much that Trump will reject the 4 point peace plan. He knows it won’t work. And who is going to ask Putin how he sees this all resolving?

"The Kremlin has praised what it perceives as the U.S.'s foreign policy shift, claiming on March 2 that it "aligns" with its "vision" after U.S. President Donald Trump's public dispute with President Volodymyr Zelensky."

This is from the Kyiv Independent and apparently aligns with a report from Russia today.

^Either way, the European armies working in concert, can out perform the Russian army. Once considered an effective army, following its performance in Ukraine, it doesn't even feature in the top 20.
^

Sorry, I cant keep up with everything, so may have missed something.

When you say "out perform", I presume you mean, troops on the ground?