New Leaders of the Free World

I'm always curious as to what exactly is the 'Free World*?

Free of what?

Authoritarianism - free democratic vote?

Communism

‘Talking Heads’ at a European summit. A load of hot air and warm words. The member states will agree on much that doesn’t cost money. Every country is in a parlous financial situation post Covid. Economies have flat lined.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

‘Talking Heads’ at a European summit. A load of hot air and warm words. The member states will agree on much that doesn’t cost money. Every country is in a parlous financial situation post Covid. Economies have flat lined.

Are you in touch with Putin?

ronib

Communism

For once, I think you're pretty near the mark there, ronib. It's certainly been a driving force for the US and we've had to tag along in its wake...

MaizieD

ronib

Communism

For once, I think you're pretty near the mark there, ronib. It's certainly been a driving force for the US and we've had to tag along in its wake...

I think that is a bit simplistic maizie

You have to look at how the relationship has developed historically, and how U.K. and Europe have been willing partners in the defence against threat using the vehicle NATO as the umbrella.

I doubt very much that Trump would now be prepared to defend NATO members in Easter Europe.

Nice idea.

Cant see it happening. Sadly.

Like I wrote on another thread, 27 countries are unlikely to agree on which brand of coffee to serve at their meetings.

I keep thinking of putting 27 of my relatives, or anyone's relatives in a room.
They wouldnt even all agree on what music to play.

But NATO has held up, and the point is that this can continue in some form with European leadership without the USA.

Still is

^NATO - Homepage

NATO - Homepage
www.nato.int
NATO is a political and military alliance of countries from Europe and North America. Its members are committed to protecting each other from any threat.
^

hmm

It held up, with the US.

fancythat

It held up, with the US.

Yes, but no longer. Trump will never defend Eastern Europe or even Western Europe in the event of attack by Putin.

I do think that we have time, as Putin’s army is on its knees and the Russian economy is really struggling.

So over the next perhaps a couple of years to get our defences first independent of USA , and built to the extent that we can feel sufficiently confident of our abilities to defend our way of life.

I

I was with a bunch of Americans a couple of weeks ago from several different states.

The two things they were (pretty much) in agreement with was that Trump was a disaster but also that Europe had to grow up, learn to work as a whole and stop relying the US for defence.

If the US withdraws, might Canada withdraw?

I stand corrected, as in there are 32 countries in Nato, not 27.

You have to look at how the relationship has developed historically, and how U.K. and Europe have been willing partners in the defence against threat using the vehicle NATO as the umbrella

What was the 'threat' NATO was defending against post Glasnost, Wwmk2? The Soviet Union broke up. It's only since Putin that there has been a 'threat from Putin which h NATO hasn't done much to counter. Who cared about Georgia, for instance? Or Putin occupying Crimea?

I very much doubt that Canada would withdraw, particularly in light of Trumps recent nonsense.

NATO has been powerless to contain dictators...

maizie as far as I am aware, Russia has never attacked a NATO country, almost certainly as a result of the mutual destruction threat - look at Cuba.

That is why Trumps behaviour is so destabilising, and causing a vacuum which must somehow be filled if we are to get back to some form of balance.

MaizieD

NATO has been powerless to contain dictators...

NATO is a defence instrument, not a political one.

But it does stand to defend what has been seen as liberal democracies since WWII

According to this BBC link, NATO leaders are due to meet in June!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18023383

fancythat

If the US withdraws, might Canada withdraw?

I stand corrected, as in there are 32 countries in Nato, not 27.

I very much doubt Canada would pull out, especially since Trump “wants Canada” for his own!

If the US withdraws from NATO, it will be the death knell of NATO and Trump knows it. You have to have served on a NATO base to appreciate what a huge hand on the tiller the Americans have; that’s before you take into account their financial commitment. The idea of a European Army may be closer than we think but that comes with a whole lot of baggage and a bigger financial commitment than any of the potential member nations - us included - are willing or able to stump up.

I think that the question or reality is that we have no choice.

It's not just all about defence. What's sad is that it was for a very long time also an understanding that there's been shared culture, participation as democracies in the world order.

It's become clear not just last night, but with Vance's attacks on Europe (unless they were the European far right parties) that the US's intention is now to try and fragment and dominate Europe.

There is of course no way we'd get 27 countries to agree on everything, this is not at all the point, its going to be a slow process but worth the building.