There's something wrong with the poor ........ ???

Cossy

The thing about “💩💩💩” jobs is that it’s partly a societal judgement thing, we will always need cleaners, road sweepers, carers, dustbin men etc etc Low paid jobs which “we” have labelled as *menial^ however if this jobs topped up UBI and gave people a better quality of life, and we valued these jobs more highly, that’s got to be a positive.

I’d done some u up freely hideous and soul destroying job, primarily because my parents instilled in me that ANY job is better than no job.

It’s a mindset.

I'm not in the least bit snobby about 'menial jobs', I value anyone who does any sort of job (apart from people in the finance industry and their hangers on ) but we have to face the fact that there are definitely some sh*tty jobs around which people only take because they are desperate and can't find anything else. Like the sort of job where your every minute is tracked and your toilet visits timed and you can be sacked for being 3 minutes late for work...

Of course, if folks stopped doing them then perhaps the employers would do something to improve their conditions of work..

Grantanow

The poor are always with us (otherwise the poor man couldn't be at his gate in the children's hymn). Seriously, I doubt poverty - however defined - can ever be completely eliminated.

I agree, but there is poverty which involves semi starvation, a few hand me down clothes, unsafe and unhealthy housing, or living on the street and unhealthy food.

Or there's 'poverty' which means that the poor person has little or nothing, more than the means to provide basic needs which keep them warmly clothed, adequately housed, fed and healthy even if there are those in society who have far, or far far, more than 'the poor'.

Poverty is a relative term.

I really don't understand how anyone can think that it's right that a civilised society can't provide those basic needs for all its citizens. I think it's uncivilised to shrug your shoulders and say 'Oh well, the poor will always be with us' when the poor are living in intolerable conditions.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

^For poverty to be eradicated the wealthy would have to lose some of their current wealth and be prevented from acquiring so much in the future.^

Isn’t this known as communism MaizieD?
“All animals are equal” etc.

Not in the slightest bit like communism, FGT.

I suggest you read up a bit about communism.

The poor are always with us (otherwise the poor man couldn't be at his gate in the children's hymn). Seriously, I doubt poverty - however defined - can ever be completely eliminated.

Cossy

The thing about “💩💩💩” jobs is that it’s partly a societal judgement thing, we will always need cleaners, road sweepers, carers, dustbin men etc etc Low paid jobs which “we” have labelled as *menial^ however if this jobs topped up UBI and gave people a better quality of life, and we valued these jobs more highly, that’s got to be a positive.

I’d done some u up freely hideous and soul destroying job, primarily because my parents instilled in me that ANY job is better than no job.

It’s a mindset.

I'm a great fan of the dustbin men, and occasional dustbin woman but we only seem to have one of those in my town. I really valued that they came every week through lockdown, they hadn't I'm sure we'd had death from other things than covid. I've always felt the refuse workers and sewage workers have probably done as much to improve health outcomes as doctors have.

I did thank the dustbin men and left them a box of cans of beer and wine but asked them not to drink it while driving and working machinery. I'd never forgive myself if it caused an accident.

For poverty to be eradicated the wealthy would have to lose some of their current wealth and be prevented from acquiring so much in the future.

Isn’t this known as communism MaizieD?
“All animals are equal” etc.

eazybee How I agree, undertaking paid work is about so much more than being paid. It keeps mind and body healthy, there’s social interaction, learning new things and self respect

MaizieD

^This is what could fund UBI, on top of this we would still have many people working and paying taxes.^

That's the bit I'm very dubious about, Cossy.

If you take away the need to find employment by paying all adults an amount which would lift the poorest out of poverty, and make it possible for people to reduce the hours they work or leave their job altogether, how many people (by which I mean any person now employed) would want to continue in their current jobs, or want to take a poorly paid one just for the sake of working?

What happens when job vacancies can't be filled because everyone is off being fulfilled and creative?

Whilst I understand what you’re saying, I think the majority of people would still work.

I know I would have done.

UBI provides the basics, anything else like car, holidays, etc etc will need to be purchased by earned income

I think the very wealthy need to feel that they have done something special, that they are different and better in some way than poor people. I don't think it would suit them for poverty to be eradicated.
What a very silly comment.
I do however agree with this, having changed a phrase:-
In the UK we are wedded to the idea that work is somehow virtuous and to not be working,( ^if you are physically and mentally capable ) -for whatever reason- renders you morally inferior^
I have no sympathy for the able bodied who refuse to work yet live happily off the work of others. I really think work is good for you and improves mental health, giving satisfaction, achievement and also remuneration. Sounds rather biblical but I am glad I worked, while being happy to retire when the time came.

The guy in the talk refers to a trial where, even with UBI, most people chose to work (and by definition pay taxes). Working gives them more money over and above the UBI to fund a "better" lifestyle as they see fit - and most people feel some satisfaction in a job well done.

It would save vast quantities of money in means-testing admin and appeal hearings for a start. And free up the poor b*****s who have to do the means-testing admin to do something more worthwhile.

This is what could fund UBI, on top of this we would still have many people working and paying taxes.

That's the bit I'm very dubious about, Cossy.

If you take away the need to find employment by paying all adults an amount which would lift the poorest out of poverty, and make it possible for people to reduce the hours they work or leave their job altogether, how many people (by which I mean any person now employed) would want to continue in their current jobs, or want to take a poorly paid one just for the sake of working?

What happens when job vacancies can't be filled because everyone is off being fulfilled and creative?

Such an interesting thread! I'm sorry I have to go out now.

* sorry I so need an edit button!

“I’ve done some pretty hideous . X” that should read

Indigo8

Boz UBI may have failed but there are examples of it working so the concept can't be dismissed out of hand.

But the problem is that is is being dismissed out of hand. it is, as others have said, too inavative to be accepted easily in our present culture.

The thing about “💩💩💩” jobs is that it’s partly a societal judgement thing, we will always need cleaners, road sweepers, carers, dustbin men etc etc Low paid jobs which “we” have labelled as *menial^ however if this jobs topped up UBI and gave people a better quality of life, and we valued these jobs more highly, that’s got to be a positive.

I’d done some u up freely hideous and soul destroying job, primarily because my parents instilled in me that ANY job is better than no job.

It’s a mindset.

Boz

It was tried already. It failed. Universal Basic Income (UBI) is not a new concept. It doesn’t create wealth. It eventually breaks down when the funding runs out.

I understand that there have been a number of trials in different countries. The results have been variable, some more positive than others. It's a bit of a sweeping generalisation to say it's been tried and has failed.

I'm sure a search would bring up several project evaluations.

Mazie I do get your point, no, utopia wouldn’t occur as a result of UBI, but it could prevent poverty and it certainly would give far more choices, particularly to families with children.

In the fiscal year 2023-24, the UK government spent an estimated £265.5 billion on pensions and benefits, with about half of that (£134.8 billion) specifically allocated to benefits for pensioners, including the state pension.

This is what could fund UBI, on top of this we would still have many people working and paying taxes.

Ilovecheese

I think the very wealthy need to feel that they have done something special, that they are different and better in some way than poor people. I don't think it would suit them for poverty to be eradicated.

For poverty to be eradicated the wealthy would have to lose some of their current wealth and be prevented from acquiring so much in the future. I can't see a UBI contributing to either of those things.

I'm very dubious about the idea that a UBI will give people more choices about work, study and leisure and we will all become happy and fulfilled people full of creativity and innovative ideas and working in lovely jobs. I often wonder who would be choosing to do the sh*tty jobs? I think it's a bit of a utopian concept.

Boz UBI may have failed but there are examples of it working so the concept can't be dismissed out of hand.

Boz

It was tried already. It failed. Universal Basic Income (UBI) is not a new concept. It doesn’t create wealth. It eventually breaks down when the funding runs out.

Probably because in trials all other benefits are not stopped.

It’s the cessation of ALL other benefits which pay for this.

I’m aware it’s not new, but I’m also aware it seems only have been trialled in very small numbers.

Ilovecheese

Boz where did it fail? How was it evaluated?

Can't answer that one but surely, in this day and age, it is unaffordable and a political hot-potato.

Boz where did it fail? How was it evaluated?

I don't think IQ tests are a measure of intelligence, just puzzle solving.

I agree Ilovecheese. Perhaps this is a subject for another thread.

It was tried already. It failed. Universal Basic Income (UBI) is not a new concept. It doesn’t create wealth. It eventually breaks down when the funding runs out.