This statistic is verging on the unbelievable....but it is not.

Very odd.

MaggsMcG

I know at least three really sick people who have been turned down for PIP they actually need it because when you are disabled pr mentally unable to hold down a full time job you need help just to pay your bills that come up due to your health. They should start with the long term unemployed first especially those that won't accept "any" work.

I think the issue here is that the primary purpose of PIP isn't to pay for "normal" bills, but to pay for extra costs associated with illness or disability.

I know that sounds harsh (and people can choose to spend PIP as they wish), but that's my understanding. It's not intended as a top up for ill and disabled people, however much they might need it.

Somebody mentioned bringing back National Service. My point is why would families wish to send their young people to do this, why would the young people be interested.

I don't see what is odd or laughable about this. The armed forces may appeal, they may not. Just like any other job.

Life has moved on.

If we're talking bout National Service, then no, I don't agree unless it is a time that requires this.

However, as an option offering opportunities, it is a good one worth consideration by the young people themselves.

I wouldn't dispute that Allira, but from what I know the requirements to join the armed forces are more demanding than many jobs, including all sorts of tests. Young people with a negative attitude, poor timekeeping, inability/reluctance to follow instructions etc are unlikely to be accepted - and they are precisely the same youngsters people claim would benefit from the armed forces. I can't blame the forces - they have a job to do, which isn't sorting out disaffected youth.

Yes, I do agree, the selection process would weed out anyone who was apathetic.
However, for those who might think it would be a chance to get away from a chaotic family life and want to succeed, it could present opportunities.

National Service could come back only if every person that age bracket do it. That's not possible. Every citizen at 18 could as a pre requirement to a job, take on some voluntary or social work for their community for a period. I don't know what you do with apathetic, lazy people, you don't give them benefits they get the money by dubious means. What's the answer? I guess shiftless lazy people have offspring the same.

Allira

Yes, I do agree, the selection process would weed out anyone who was apathetic.
However, for those who might think it would be a chance to get away from a chaotic family life and want to succeed, it could present opportunities.

Let me start with the figures. There are roughly 75,000 regular serving soldiers in the British army at the moment. Counting in reservists and other groups like the Gurkhas, that rises to around 110,000.

Each year the number of births in this country is between 600-700,000. That is a ratio of 1 soldier to every 6-7 untrained school leavers being recruited into the army. If they serve two years the ratio goes up to 1 soldier to 12-14 rookees. Really?

What cloud cuckoo land do people who rabbit on about national Service as before actually live in. It is a ludicrous idea. The army is not a social service . It is a highly trained and concentrated fighting force liable to sent anywhere in the world at very short notice.

National Service was introduced to provide the country with the soldiers it needed to fight wars, at a time when the requirements from the average foot-soldier were far more basic than they are now.

As for saying there should be a selection system. Either you have National Service or you don't. What good would it do society to call up all the best and most able and delay the time they could start training for careers, while the 'not up to it' (from which I exclude those too ill or disabled to serve) continue to languish at home and on the streets?

If you want young people to spend a year or two serving society, in itself not a bad thing, let us at least have a service designed to fit the modern world, a modern version of President Kennedy's Peace Corps, and not just hark back nostalgically to some time nearly 100 years ago when we had an empire and a need for men in boots who had been taught how to fire a rifle

* growstuff * I agree with you. I have met, occasionally, the young person ( and older person) you describe- disgruntled, disorganised and disagreeable .
I felt for anyone trying to persuade an employer to take them on: if I were a business owner, I'd prefer the willing, punctual, courteous candidate .

growstuff

I wouldn't dispute that Allira, but from what I know the requirements to join the armed forces are more demanding than many jobs, including all sorts of tests. Young people with a negative attitude, poor timekeeping, inability/reluctance to follow instructions etc are unlikely to be accepted - and they are precisely the same youngsters people claim would benefit from the armed forces. I can't blame the forces - they have a job to do, which isn't sorting out disaffected youth.

Completely agree

MaggsMcG

I know at least three really sick people who have been turned down for PIP they actually need it because when you are disabled pr mentally unable to hold down a full time job you need help just to pay your bills that come up due to your health. They should start with the long term unemployed first especially those that won't accept "any" work.

I understand where you are coming from, but PIP and “unemployment benefit” are two entirely things.

I would actually start with youngsters, they have far longer to work and need to learn early on to be responsible citizens.

Apologies if this has already been touched on earlier in this thread but Governments have been changing goal posts rather a lot in fairly recent years.

I’m thinking here of women over 60 who may be are just knackered but can do a job but with fewer hours and can continue without resorting to visiting the GP constantly to be excused with a fit note from being obliged to look for another job with more hours or beg their current bosses for more.
After illness, and on the advice of “job coaches” I was advised to make it work for me
…so I did but as soon as the constantly fluctuating hours dip to just the minimum contract and. as many retailers are severely cutting their payrolls …it seems it is not working for them (theDWP) that is

This is just one example that might answer those querying the “why and the how” of it all.

I have found that the “youngsters” where I work some just 16 and many at Uni hand there are many different cultures, faiths and races) rub along very well amongst the big age range at my workplace.
They start shy and sometimes a bit sullen even but can soon immerse themselves fully into customer service roles.the change in them is sometimes amazing, But maybe these got the jobs because that potential is there anyway. Who knows.

It's a well worn trope isn't it? The disaffected youth from a family of scroungers who makes something of himself / herself in the Armed Forces.

Presumably it doesn't apply to middle class people.They can have gap years and a part time job which is provided for them.

glasshalffullagain

It's a well worn trope isn't it? The disaffected youth from a family of scroungers who makes something of himself / herself in the Armed Forces.

Presumably it doesn't apply to middle class people.They can have gap years and a part time job which is provided for them.

I think that’s very unfair!

Plenty of middle class children don’t have a gap year and end up working fairly menial jobs, if they’ve attended Uni. Two out of our five did go to Uni, none had a gap year and all bar one are working very hard in full time jobs they found for themselves.

I have not used the term “scroungers” anywhere in my posts, but sadly the facts speak for themselves, there are far too many third generational families and way way too many 16-25 not in work or education.

We are an ageing population with a decreasing birth rate, something radical needs to be done!

Allira

theworriedwell

Allira

M0nica

Allira I quite agree, the discipline and structure the armed services provide, has been a godsend to some youngsters, but youngsters who are willing able and capable of ltraining up to the requirements of army. Not a rag tag bunch of 18 year olds who are having career plans delayed or rounded up off the streets. They can only be a hindrance and not a help.

I agree.
I wasn't suggesting a press gang 😁 but perhaps some young people might not be aware of the opportunities for training and advancement in the Forces.

I worked in police admin back in the 80s. The force stopped recruiting cadets and replaced them with YTS youngsters. I don't know how they applied but they were generally great, they were paid a pittance, can't remember now but I think it was something like £15 a week.

I had one allocated to me, he'd do admin work 3 days a week and physical fitness and some classes the other two days. I think what made a big difference to him was the DI and DCI took an interest in him, took the mickey out of him mercilessly sometimes but encouraged him with his work, included him in CID social things. As soon as his 2 year YTS ended he joined the police. I suppose he's retired now but certainly for the first few years he was doing very well.

Over the 2 years he worked with me he changed so much, smartened up, attitude etc. We were all really proud when he got accepted into the force.

I was at a funeral and the person giving the eulogy was a former pupil at a school for 'maladjusted boys'. The funeral was of a former teacher at the school.

The man giving the eulogy ended up as an Inspector in the police force.

It's great that people can turn it round. Stephen Fry is an example, convicted fraudster, did time in prison, got into Cambridge University and very successful career. I don't suppose many would have predicted that when he was in court.

Granmarderby10

I have found that the “youngsters” where I work some just 16 and many at Uni hand there are many different cultures, faiths and races) rub along very well amongst the big age range at my workplace.
They start shy and sometimes a bit sullen even but can soon immerse themselves fully into customer service roles.the change in them is sometimes amazing, But maybe these got the jobs because that potential is there anyway. Who knows.

Friendships and relationships at work can be very positive. GS was doing quite a boring menial job during his gap year and made friends with another young man his age. This young man had dropped out of school, had no qualifications, no friends and no social life. GS took him under his wing, took him to the local pub to watch football which was a new experience for him, invited him out clubbing with his friends for his birthday and again he'd never done anything like that. He started getting out of be on a Sunday morning to go and support GS when he was playing. His mother sent a message via one of the women who worked in the same place thanking GS. He was a surly character at work and GS would give him a bit of stick about it or joke about it and apparently it helped.

His friend now has a girlfriend, social life and is a much happier character from all we hear. GS does catch up with him in uni holidays.

Cossy

glasshalffullagain

It's a well worn trope isn't it? The disaffected youth from a family of scroungers who makes something of himself / herself in the Armed Forces.

Presumably it doesn't apply to middle class people.They can have gap years and a part time job which is provided for them.

I think that’s very unfair!

Plenty of middle class children don’t have a gap year and end up working fairly menial jobs, if they’ve attended Uni. Two out of our five did go to Uni, none had a gap year and all bar one are working very hard in full time jobs they found for themselves.

I have not used the term “scroungers” anywhere in my posts, but sadly the facts speak for themselves, there are far too many third generational families and way way too many 16-25 not in work or education.

We are an ageing population with a decreasing birth rate, something radical needs to be done!

Our DC paid for their 'indulgent gap years' by working to save money to travel then working when they stayed anywhere for a while.
But perhaps we're not middle class 🤔

and a part time job which is provided for them.
How does that work then? I'm intrigued.

Is it because they might know someone else who's waiting on at the local pub or, going upmarket, at a local golf course? Or someone who works on a building site so can recommend them as general labourers?
It's not what you know, it's who you know? Is that what you mean?

Im sorry, but young people from challenging backgrounds are not going to be getting a shoe in to a job at a golf club. Nor are they likely to be saving up to go to Thailand.

I don't see why they should be expected to join the Armed Forces as an alternative or worse still sign up for National Service.

glasshalffullagain

Im sorry, but young people from challenging backgrounds are not going to be getting a shoe in to a job at a golf club. Nor are they likely to be saving up to go to Thailand.

I don't see why they should be expected to join the Armed Forces as an alternative or worse still sign up for National Service.

Sorry, don't know what you mean by getting a shoe in to a job at a golf club.

Oe of my DD worked at a golf club as a waitress. None of us belong to a golf club or play golf, we did not know who owned it. She was told by a schoolfriend they needed waitresses so applied for the job and got it.
The reason was she wanted money and she was prepared to work for it.

I don't see what difference it would make if someone is from a challenging bsckground, or are you agreeing with other posters that they come from a background where not working and being on benefits is considered the norm for generations?

If so, they need help with finding a job. Joining the Armed Forces would get them away from thst background, too, and show them there is an alternative way of life.

No-one is expecting them to do that, just suggesting offering them opportunities.

In case you weren't aware, National Service finished in 1960.

Of course there are plenty out there fleecing the system. And it’s not just the stereotypical layabout (though there are plenty of those) but also those in full-time, extremely gainful employment who know every loophole to avoid paying taxes.

It’s only us caught in the middle who seem to play by the book.

Unfortunately there are some people that do not want to work and it is now possible to claim unable to work due to mental health problems or anxiety.. I am older, years ago in difficult circumstances we carried on regardless because doing something, anything made us feel wanted and useful. My mother was born in 1916 and at 8 mths contracted polio. There was no benefits then but my mother was a survivor and my grandparents didn’t treat her any differently to their other children, she wasn’t registered as disabled until she was 56 when she managed to get mobility allowance on appeal! I hate to say it but there are people playing the system and it makes me angry that they get away with it. The Government needs to wake up to the amount of fraud in the system because people that really need the help are losing out to fraudsters.

glasshalffullagain

It's a well worn trope isn't it? The disaffected youth from a family of scroungers who makes something of himself / herself in the Armed Forces.

Presumably it doesn't apply to middle class people.They can have gap years and a part time job which is provided for them.

Perhaps youth could make something of the Armed Force, perhaps not - but the idea could be well received by some young people.

Gap years are good for children who wish to explore - not sure to your objection?

Can I just repeat again that according to the DWP, the amount of fraud in PIP is estimated as nil.

I suspect there may be more fraudulent claims by those on Universal Credit who try to get classified as not fit to work, but by abolishing the Work Capability Assessment, making the PIP criteria the eligibility criteria, this may reduce spurious MH claims perhaps?