According to Angela Rayner 'Working class people do not want "handouts" but support to find jobs.'

M0nica

But all backgrounds mix these days and share much in common. In almost all the things I do, the people I am mixing with come from all kinds of different backgrounds, rich and poor, joined by a common interest.

We went to a local smart restaurant recently for our wedding anniversary and were followed into the car park by a chauffeur driven Rolls Royce. The people who got out of it were stereotypical East End. Cockney accents, loud, one elderly lady was wearing crocs. No one took any notice. They were obviously local and regulars at the restaurant.

On our village history society, the local postman has done more extensive research into the village history than anyone else and written several articles on it. I have also been on the committee of a local environmental group with a peer of the realm. Lord X, he had no great estate and had always had to earn his own living, even though he had been to one of the great public schools.

Casdon You have it the wrong way round. It is how much money people have that governs their education and social circle. As for family background, when I look round the people in my social circle i see a wide cariety of backgrounds. My background lies in the Irish emigrants that came to this country during the famine or enlisted in the army, One of my grandfathers was a dock worker. Other friends come from several generations of middle class professionals. DH's father worked on the assembly line in a car factory.

I went to see my GP today. It was someone I hadn't seen before. He stood up when I came in, a big shambling man dressed in blue scrubs much like a road worker, he had long dreadlocks, an accent that was pure estuary, the kindest face and I felt very comfortable with him. Like me he is of immigrant stock, although whether his is Africa or the Caribbean I am not sure, but, like me, his family have been British for multiple generations. Anyone care to slot him into a class? Was he privately educated or made good from an inner city school? Is his father a doctor or a bus driver or anything else. Does it matter?

Class is dead, I do not understand all the nostalgia for it.

Oh I do agree, I do wish “class” was dead though, I do see it rearing its ugly head though, my DH is Irish, his Dad was a labourer prior to moving to London in the early sixties, as a bus driver, whilst attending night school.

My dear parents definitely considered themselves middle class, voting Tory, living a very nice life in a lovely big house in a nice area.

When I left home, I discovered the “real world” and I lived a very different life.

Now I have a lovely diverse set of amazing friends, from very different backgrounds and levels of income, all good people.

The You Gov survey was interesting, thanks for posting it Casdon However, asking the general public for opinions on class is not the same as asking sociologists or people who specialise in constructing surveys the same questions. For sociologists it is merely a way of classifying people into stable groups which is particularly relevant if you are conducting research. The main reason that income is not generally used although it can be used to further define groups, is that people tend to spend their income according to their values, interests and how much is disposable, which in the days of the bank of mum and dad is often tied to home ownership.
I do wonder if people are thinking more in terms of snobbery than actual social class and that's why people struggle with the idea that they are put into a category by others? However, the bottom line is that every time we meet someone new, to some extent we ask them questions that give us information about which box they will fit into and for many working people the first question is "what do you do?" I don't think I have ever asked anyone what they earn.

I know foxie48, I’ve got a Sociology degree, and I’m aware that the classification of people into groups for research purposes is a challenge, because nobody fully fits into any boxes, although classification is the only way to do it. I thought the survey was interesting in revealing that for the participants, there are many factors which contribute to what they perceive as social class/status, and weighting is definitely not just about income/inherited wealth. I don’t think the UK population will be moving on from judging others social class by the key factors included, (and others, I’d find it interesting to know what they are for other people) at any point soon.

foxie48

I'm afraid some of the posts totally ignore social mobility and the fact that social class in almost all circumstances is based on head of household's occupation not how much they earn. It's most definitely not what we think represents a particular social class or with whom we socialise.
The fact that someone has an interest in local history, has dreadlocks and a stethoscope or wears crocs to a posh restaurant has absolutely zilch to do with social class but quite a lot to do with what people consider as appropriate social norms ( sometimes seen as snobbery) which can be class based.
Often the more money people have the less they feel the need to adhere to social norms so the rich lady in crocs was probably demonstrating that she could and would wear whatever she wanted! Fwiw Balenciaga sell crocs for nearly £1k and Swarovski do a cheaper pair for £160 so restaurant lady might have been making a fashion statement!

Agreed.

Perceptions and snobbery.

Unfortunately people can dress in designer clothes, eat and be seen at the in places due to having £££’s, but there is absolutely no mistaking class (i.e. the landed gentry, old money etc)

There is far more to class than having money, class is something you cannot buy, it is something you are born with.

Casdon

Here’s what the latest survey says, it is interesting.
yougov.co.uk/society/articles/51105-how-do-britons-define-social-class#:~:text=Although%20most%20Britons%20might%20feel,are%20middle%20or%20working%20class.

Very interesting.

My husband and I tick all the boxes fitting a certain description. Logical, I believe working class represents over half the population quite well.

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately people can dress in designer clothes, eat and be seen at the in places due to having £££’s, but there is absolutely no mistaking class (i.e. the landed gentry, old money etc)

There is far more to class than having money, class is something you cannot buy, it is something you are born with.

In that sense I most certainly agree

Thank you for that survey Casdon, very interesting. I think class is still very alive, but gone fuzzy at the edges.

Casdon sorry no intention to teach another gran to suck eggs. tbh I did my degree so long ago I do worry about how much of it is still current!

GG13 No hope for me then. Interestingly, Having been a pony club mother in two different counties, I've met a few "hons" and the odd "Lady" tbh I thought they were pretty much like me but with more land! I rang up about a horse for sale, spoke to the owner to arrange a visit and when given the address of a very well known estate I asked how she'd managed to get livery there. She replied, "I married the Duke". I didn't buy the horse but she was charming and quite "ordinary".
I don't think "class" is something someone is born with, it's just a myth to keep the hoi polloi in their place. The upper classes are just like everyone else but given every advantage by dint of having money and connections. For me, good manners are the key, not the rules of etiquette but the manners which ensure people are treated with kindness and respect whatever their status in life and that is taught by example not passed on through breeding.

class is something you cannot buy, it is something you are born with.

Really? Like having 'blue blood'?

I'd say it's something you're born into. Culturally acquired...

Strange logic.

Dogs are not reptiles, but mammals.

Cats, however, are different from dogs.

By the logic of the OP, cats would be reptiles.

nanna8

This obsession with ‘class’ , doesn’t help anyone. It is divisive and ridiculous. Time the politicians moved up and away from defining people like this.

Well said!

Casdon

I know foxie48, I’ve got a Sociology degree, and I’m aware that the classification of people into groups for research purposes is a challenge, because nobody fully fits into any boxes, although classification is the only way to do it. I thought the survey was interesting in revealing that for the participants, there are many factors which contribute to what they perceive as social class/status, and weighting is definitely not just about income/inherited wealth. I don’t think the UK population will be moving on from judging others social class by the key factors included, (and others, I’d find it interesting to know what they are for other people) at any point soon.

Weren't the key factors included by the researchers, though? If someone asked you whether you ascribed class status based on x, y and z, but not a, b and c, that wouldn't mean that you would see xyz as more important if you had a wider choice. Some of the characteristics are odd, too - I doubt the Duchess of Northumberland is seen as anything other than upper class, despite living in the north of England. There are areas of towns and cities that are associated with different classes (Belgravia and Bermondsey, for instance) but whole areas of the country?

I don't think people are 'born with' class either. As I said upthread, it's not genetic. If it were, Danny Dyer would be an aristocrat . He might make it out of being working class based on income, too, but he wouldn't be the first person to spring to mind if asked to name a representative of the British upper class (or middle class, come to that) and I doubt he'd mind me saying so.

There are definitely markers that indicate upbringing, but these can be learnt or imitated. I suppose that's another reason why the ABC categories don't work. The occupation of the 'head of household' will determine household income in many cases, but there is far more to it than that.

Class is like style, you either have it or you don’t.

I know two women one dresses out of charity stores and Primark, she is one of the most stylish and well dressed women in our circle

The other hasn’t got to worry about what she spends on anything, only buys labels , unfortunately she cannot put together an outfit and frequently looks dreadful.

knspol

nanna8

This obsession with ‘class’ , doesn’t help anyone. It is divisive and ridiculous. Time the politicians moved up and away from defining people like this.

Well said!

It is neither divisive nor ridiculous, it is a tool that is used in many different ways. Magazines sell their advertising space based on the classification of their readers, manufacturers and retailers want to be able to identify the target market for their products and lots more details about their market so they decide on production numbers, price etc. Politicians want to know about the electorate and how best to reach them in the period running up to an election (it's a huge business in the US!) The NHS use these classifications as they are aware that certain social groups are more likely to smoke, develop cardiac disease etc etc, it helps with forward planning. I could go on and on.........
What you are talking about is not social class but the snobbery and social attitudes that people hold which is a completely different issue.

It benefits everybody if those who can work, do work. Too many people relying on benefits are fit to work. Those in greatest need, the severely mentally or physically handicapped, need to be able to easy claim the benefits they cannot survive without. I am glad Rayner is going after both ends of ‘entitlement’ to taxpayers money and I include wealthy farmers in that.
Now she needs to look at Royal finances and get the law changed that keeps their Wills secret. While society is struggling to
House its population, we have a family with multiple, often empty, homes arguing who should have which one!

Exactly to the point, foxie.
ie -

groups need to be identified for a whole number of purposes

but also ideas and feelings around class backgrounds are still with us

Doodledog

Casdon

I know foxie48, I’ve got a Sociology degree, and I’m aware that the classification of people into groups for research purposes is a challenge, because nobody fully fits into any boxes, although classification is the only way to do it. I thought the survey was interesting in revealing that for the participants, there are many factors which contribute to what they perceive as social class/status, and weighting is definitely not just about income/inherited wealth. I don’t think the UK population will be moving on from judging others social class by the key factors included, (and others, I’d find it interesting to know what they are for other people) at any point soon.

Weren't the key factors included by the researchers, though? If someone asked you whether you ascribed class status based on x, y and z, but not a, b and c, that wouldn't mean that you would see xyz as more important if you had a wider choice. Some of the characteristics are odd, too - I doubt the Duchess of Northumberland is seen as anything other than upper class, despite living in the north of England. There are areas of towns and cities that are associated with different classes (Belgravia and Bermondsey, for instance) but whole areas of the country?

I don't think people are 'born with' class either. As I said upthread, it's not genetic. If it were, Danny Dyer would be an aristocrat . He might make it out of being working class based on income, too, but he wouldn't be the first person to spring to mind if asked to name a representative of the British upper class (or middle class, come to that) and I doubt he'd mind me saying so.

There are definitely markers that indicate upbringing, but these can be learnt or imitated. I suppose that's another reason why the ABC categories don't work. The occupation of the 'head of household' will determine household income in many cases, but there is far more to it than that.

I’d say the major key indicators were included, but there are always those that are not included because the process would become very complicated to analyse, and those which are that some would consider questionable. Small things like for example, the type of house people choose, their clothes, even their food choices are all indicators. It’s possible to imitate a different social group, but I think those in it by birth would be aware. This conversation remind me of that old Peter Sarstedt song Where do you go to my lovely.

GrannyGravy13

Class is like style, you either have it or you don’t.

I know two women one dresses out of charity stores and Primark, she is one of the most stylish and well dressed women in our circle

The other hasn’t got to worry about what she spends on anything, only buys labels , unfortunately she cannot put together an outfit and frequently looks dreadful.

Aaaah.

Well that is a completely different 'class' from the one being discussed on this thread, surely?

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

Class is like style, you either have it or you don’t.

I know two women one dresses out of charity stores and Primark, she is one of the most stylish and well dressed women in our circle

The other hasn’t got to worry about what she spends on anything, only buys labels , unfortunately she cannot put together an outfit and frequently looks dreadful.

Aaaah.

Well that is a completely different 'class' from the one being discussed on this thread, surely?

To be totally honest like most threads on GN they meander off from the OP.

A working class plumber or electrician can earn a six figure salary in this part of the world. That might make them rich, and better off than the majority of the working class it doesn’t make them part of the rich elite

They might go to top restaurants etc., it doesn’t make them posh and/or classy.

This obsession with class reminds me of the classic sketch in the Frost Report with John Cleese and Ronnie Barker. "I look up to him because he is middle class" etc. Funny and daft sketch that pokes fun at the whole class thing. Unfortunately the the class system is still alive and well, and there is too much snobbery and not enough empathy.

In my opinion there are definitely people who are jogging along on benefits with no real desire to work.

It should be significantly better financially to be in paid work than to live on handouts.

Benefits should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.

I do accept that there are many disabled (both physically and mentally) who are unable to work at all, or at best work restricted hours. These people should be helped to live the best life available to them, without fearing every bill dropping through the letterbox.

Lizzie44

This obsession with class reminds me of the classic sketch in the Frost Report with John Cleese and Ronnie Barker. "I look up to him because he is middle class" etc. Funny and daft sketch that pokes fun at the whole class thing. Unfortunately the the class system is still alive and well, and there is too much snobbery and not enough empathy.

That is a really clever sketch.

We have been in restaurants, hotels etc., where people can obviously afford to be there, but have zero etiquette or manners.

Saying that we have also seen so called hooray henry’s behaving appallingly.

GrannyGravy13

In my opinion there are definitely people who are jogging along on benefits with no real desire to work.

It should be significantly better financially to be in paid work than to live on handouts.

Benefits should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.

I do accept that there are many disabled (both physically and mentally) who are unable to work at all, or at best work restricted hours. These people should be helped to live the best life available to them, without fearing every bill dropping through the letterbox.

👏👏👏

Agreed, 100%.