PM recalls Parliament

Your 10:57:07 post was really helpful Maizie, thank you. I feel I could do with finding the equivalent of a Ted Talk . There maybe some long form articles over the weekend, I guess.

Ilovecheese

Starter is too much of a son of Thatcher to approve nationisattion. There will be some sort of fudge before he gives money to some private enterprise who will make promises they won't keep.

That’s patently not true as rail is being renationalised. The world has changed so much in the last couple of years that I would guess a whole new strategy for the future of steel in the UK is needed, but that can’t be achieved in the timeframe that Scunthorpe needs now, particularly if an extortionate price is being asked to purchase it. We will no doubt find out more later today.

PoliticsNerd

OldFrill

Casdon

Do you think coal powered blast furnaces should operate on a permanent basis then OldFrill?

Would have thought that was obvious

Perhaps you could explain the "obvious" to those of us who missed it.

Snipy much. I'm not shoring up others' failings thanks. Also can't see it's that important.

I read this interesting comment on another site this morning. I have no idea how much expertise/knowledge the writer has of steel production, but it sounds convincing and introduces some complexity to the debate.

Making steel is a complicated process with many stages. And steel is not a uniform product. What type of steel do you need, for what function?

Blast furnaces don’t produce steel. They produce pig iron. To do that, they need raw materials – iron ore, coke, limestone, etc. And ideally those bulk materials would all be available nearby. So where does Scunthorpe source its raw materials?

The coking ovens in Scunthorpe were closed down a few years ago. So that all needs to be imported.

And then the output from the blast furnace (impure cast iron) needs to be processed to produce whatever products are required – stainless steel, carbon steel, long or flat products, or whatever. So which are we making and why? Rails for trains? Wires? Plates for ships or cars?

The UK’s steel production is minuscule. About 4 million tonnes in 2024. About the same as Sweden or Finland. The Netherlands is about 6, Austria and Belgium and Poland all about 7, France and Spain about 11, Italy 20 and Germany nearly 40 MT. The world production is a both 1,800 million tonnes each year, with more than half in China, about 8% in India and around 4% in each of Japan, Russia and the US. The UK is less than a quarter of a percent. 2 parts in a thousand.

As far as I can see there is no primary production of iron or steel in many countries – Switzerland or Ireland or Portugal, for example – but some of them have arc furnaces that take in iron or steel of one sort (recycled, or from their neighbours) and produce different steels of higher value.

So what is the argument for primary production from ore in the UK? Do we expect we might be unable to import iron or steel from say France or Germany?

Perhaps we should just shut down these blast furnaces and make the jump to electric arc furnaces or direct reduction. And even if we do need to keep them as a strategic reserve, why can’t we close down the blast furnaces (in the same way that they are shut down for maintenance) ready to reopen?

The story that we have been sold over the closure of blast furnaces has been that only they can produce certain high quality steels. and that recycling via electric arc furnaces can't do this. Is this true?

Ilovecheese

Starter is too much of a son of Thatcher to approve nationisattion. There will be some sort of fudge before he gives money to some private enterprise who will make promises they won't keep.

Can you explain the "son of Thatcher" remark?

I don't see Margaret Thatcher as someone who focused on equity, community, and public service or Keir Starmer as someone who focuses on individualism and market-driven solutions. Love to hear your explanation.

ayse

We need Scunthorpe to manufacture virgin, high quality steel. I used to work for a company using only British made steel for oil pipelines. All the orders stated no Chinese or Indian steel.

I’ve been a bit of a fence sitter for environmental reasons but we also need coking coal, at least for now. I’d pay more tax to expand our industries.

The Labour Party needs to get a grip and renationalise our prime industries, not just steel. I loathe Brexit but let’s use our freedom now. We’ll need it in the future for defence and new Universal Theme park. Oh, and ensure jobs for the future.

I don't think old fashioned renationalisation will work now.

How will that resolve the twin problems of wanting to pay low wages and not being prepare to invest? Unless you are in favour of extreme socialism you have to resolve the issue of where the extremes of wealth go.

Starter is too much of a son of Thatcher to approve nationisattion. There will be some sort of fudge before he gives money to some private enterprise who will make promises they won't keep.

OldFrill

Casdon

Do you think coal powered blast furnaces should operate on a permanent basis then OldFrill?

Would have thought that was obvious

Perhaps you could explain the "obvious" to those of us who missed it.

Just listened to BBC news. It seems even the Greens and Reform support the government. The Conservatives as ever are blaming the government for the problem.

ayse

We need Scunthorpe to manufacture virgin, high quality steel. I used to work for a company using only British made steel for oil pipelines. All the orders stated no Chinese or Indian steel.

I’ve been a bit of a fence sitter for environmental reasons but we also need coking coal, at least for now. I’d pay more tax to expand our industries.

The Labour Party needs to get a grip and renationalise our prime industries, not just steel. I loathe Brexit but let’s use our freedom now. We’ll need it in the future for defence and new Universal Theme park. Oh, and ensure jobs for the future.

Well said.

We need Scunthorpe to manufacture virgin, high quality steel. I used to work for a company using only British made steel for oil pipelines. All the orders stated no Chinese or Indian steel.

I’ve been a bit of a fence sitter for environmental reasons but we also need coking coal, at least for now. I’d pay more tax to expand our industries.

The Labour Party needs to get a grip and renationalise our prime industries, not just steel. I loathe Brexit but let’s use our freedom now. We’ll need it in the future for defence and new Universal Theme park. Oh, and ensure jobs for the future.

Well said Grandmabatty💐

Margaret Thatcher ruined the steel industry in Scotland by closing Ravenscraig and privatising it. Starmer could have saved the last refinery in Scotland but chose not to. It could have been nationalised too. I'm fed up with Westminster politicians doing what right for England but dismissing similar situations in Scotland

Casdon

Do you think coal powered blast furnaces should operate on a permanent basis then OldFrill?

Would have thought that was obvious

Do you think coal powered blast furnaces should operate on a permanent basis then OldFrill?

Casdon

OldFrill

Labour could have saved Port Talbot (and suggested they would during the GE) but then just followed the Conservative party's electrification route, though the success of that, if it ever happens, probably depends if we can ever produce electricity for our needs if we want Net Zero.
Of course with the potential lack of US support re defence we need steel to further weaponise and it's suicide to stop producing our own, we also should be mining our own coal to support it.
It was FotE and local campaigns that saw off Whitehaven Coal via the High Court. The damage these supposed green campaigns inflict on our self sufficiency, security and economy is beyond belief.

Where do you get the assertion that Labour could in the end have saved Port Talbot’s last furnace temporarily from OldFrill? Why would they have spent what turned out to be billions on a short term solution, when that point Scunthorpe was still a viable plant?

I've not said temporarily.

Yes, steel making can use electric powered furnaces.
e360.yale.edu/digest/steel-industry-carbon-coal-electric-arc-furnaces#:~:text=The%20global%20steel%20industry%20is,detailed%20in%20a%20new%20report.
I don’t know if the companies operating in the UK are proposing to do that here currently, not at Port Talbot, which will be recycling only. Ultimately the UK does need an electric production plant for new steel in my opinion.

Would electrified furnaces be capable of producing the kind of steels needed for national security? I thought they could only deal with recycled scrap.

Yes Casdon, they probably do have us over a barrel.

Once again we can thank Thatcher for the mess we are in today:

The British Steel Corporation was privatized by the Conservative government led by Margaret Thatcher in 1988, according to The Adam Smith Institute. The privatization was formalized with the British Steel Act 1988, transferring the corporation's assets to British Steel plc, which was then listed on the Stock Exchange, as noted by British Steel.

Oreo

Whitewavemark2

Yes, I thought that it was to be nationalised, but it seems to stop short of that so far.

Disappointed as I think our steel industry should be nationalised. Maybe it will be yet.

Agreed. I wonder if the price the Chinese company would sell for at the moment is extortionate? They do have us over a barrel, because we don’t have an alternative.

OldFrill

Labour could have saved Port Talbot (and suggested they would during the GE) but then just followed the Conservative party's electrification route, though the success of that, if it ever happens, probably depends if we can ever produce electricity for our needs if we want Net Zero.
Of course with the potential lack of US support re defence we need steel to further weaponise and it's suicide to stop producing our own, we also should be mining our own coal to support it.
It was FotE and local campaigns that saw off Whitehaven Coal via the High Court. The damage these supposed green campaigns inflict on our self sufficiency, security and economy is beyond belief.

Where do you get the assertion that Labour could in the end have saved Port Talbot’s last furnace temporarily from OldFrill? Why would they have spent what turned out to be billions on a short term solution, when that point Scunthorpe was still a viable plant?

Whitewavemark2

Yes, I thought that it was to be nationalised, but it seems to stop short of that so far.

Disappointed as I think our steel industry should be nationalised. Maybe it will be yet.

Labour could have saved Port Talbot (and suggested they would during the GE) but then just followed the Conservative party's electrification route, though the success of that, if it ever happens, probably depends if we can ever produce electricity for our needs if we want Net Zero.
Of course with the potential lack of US support re defence we need steel to further weaponise and it's suicide to stop producing our own, we also should be mining our own coal to support it.
It was FotE and local campaigns that saw off Whitehaven Coal via the High Court. The damage these supposed green campaigns inflict on our self sufficiency, security and economy is beyond belief.

Pippa000

I can't remember this being considered for Port Talbot.

Neither can I, which is why I think Badenoch has a nerve criticising Labour for trying to do something about Scunthorpe.

OldFrill

To forward Net Zero, Milliband will not mine coal in the UK so we import it from Australia via Japan in diesel fuelled cargo ships.
When will this madness stop.
energynewsbeat.co/millions-on-coal-from-japan-to-save-our-steel-net-zero-madness-as-taxpayers-foot-the-bill-to-keep-furnaces-burning/?amp=1

I would agree with this argument if we expected net zero now, at this moment. However, a single argument does not warrant a definitive conclusion. To get to net zero we have to move incrementally.