Trans women and single-sex spaces

I agree that claims of biological validity has resulted in extreme situations Wyllow. We've seen here on GN in the past how debate has attempted to split feminists, with intersectional feminists trying to claim the higher moral ground.

Smileless2012

Thank you for the link Wyllow. What's lacking in the content is the acknowledgement of the huge part the TRA's have had to play.

That's the reason why things have changed and the vast majority of trans women who do simply want to get on with their lives, now feel at risk.

The rise in transphobia is IMO down to the appalling behaviour of a very small minority, and supports what we on GN have been saying for years.

What I think made the difference was not the desire to be recognised as women gender only wise but the attempt to claim it had biological validity which led to as you say really extreme situations (as well as what to me as someone not versed in the detail verging on the ludicrous).

But I was involved enough in debates to witness the fierce debates over whether third options were acceptable which split both transwomen and feminists and was caught up with the "biology" debates.

And found myself often piggy in the middle as I thought third options a way forward and as the debates raged I thought about "the quiet ones" which has led me to ask the questions I did above, and how to meet their needs as well of course as those of us being born a women. Such a small minority of the population too.

I think I feel that social issues of many kinds are born out of fierce debates: which we are in the middle of, and take time to resolve.

Apart from TRA's, who would you say isn't expressing their opinions with respect and sincerity Luminance?

I will continue to treat all women with respect as I have always done. I even respect their opinions. What I do not condone nor respect only attaches itself to how those opinions are expressed. I respect honesty and sincerity. The rest is beneath contempt. To my mind people on both sides of this debate, whether trans or not, if not doing so with honesty and integrity, they are the same.

Glasweegran
Don't you think it was the lack of thoughtfulness towards women and non-harmful trans which caused the problems in the first place?
It’s fine talking about too much reaction, especially if you include the reaction by TRA to people speaking the truth and defending women’s rights-reactions like death threats and cancelling aimed at innocent people.
Luminance mentioned somewhere about the need for mutual respect.
Where is the respect for women from those TW/TRA who are still stamping their feet and shouting that they won’t take any notice of the ruling.

Thank you for the link Wyllow. What's lacking in the content is the acknowledgement of the huge part the TRA's have had to play.

That's the reason why things have changed and the vast majority of trans women who do simply want to get on with their lives, now feel at risk.

The rise in transphobia is IMO down to the appalling behaviour of a very small minority, and supports what we on GN have been saying for years.

Ilovecheese

In answer to the question "where can I go for refuge from domestic violence"
The domestic violence charity Refuge is going to continue with its policy of including trans women.
Nothing has changed there.

Yes, I noticed that, there is a detailed BBC article about the issues. Refuge have been aware for a long time of the issues but their guidelines are

"Currently all our community based and non-accommodation services are fully accessible to trans women, and our accommodation services are predominantly single-sex

Also in the BBC article it noted one organisation immediately deciding "British Transport Police has been the first body to actually change its policies. It says strip searches of people in custody will be carried out by officers of the same biological sex.

BBC article, read last section
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74z04j23pwo

There are also issues around civil partnerships and marriage which currently revolve around having a GRC.

And some weren't. Women's Aid clarified their commitment to single sex services a while back. They still provide services for men who identify as trans but also provide single sex services as they understand that some traumatised women need them.

Yes lots of organisations were weak. There are now refuges that cater only for women so women can choose.

Ilovecheese

In answer to the question "where can I go for refuge from domestic violence"
The domestic violence charity Refuge is going to continue with its policy of including trans women.
Nothing has changed there.

And same in Scotland. This is because women's refuges never actually had a problem with transwomen in the first place.

Syracute

Ridiculous thing to do !
Now it is 2x hate mongering

Is this supposed to be a comment on there being two threads? Neither of which are in any way hate mongering. If any hate mongering was done it was by the trans militants and the SNP government under Sturgeon who accused anyone criticising their policy of being bigots and transphobic. We all have to live together yet she alienated so many moderate, caring, people to suit her political agenda. Don't come here to bicker about threads full of hate, your perception is distorted by your own agenda. I suspect you will call more like you will come, anonymously supporting each other on line with no regard for truth or logic.

I don't know about other towns and cities, but here in Manchester the only public lavatories I can think of are at the station. The council closed the others due to austerity and asked that shops, bars and eateries allowed the general public to use theirs, even if they were not customers.
I think it will quickly become apparent which venues will still allow trans people access to their facilities and which will only allow access to those whose biological set matches the single sex facility.
Women and trans will then be able to choose, and Muslim women could feel secure in making a choice.

Yes, nothings really changed has it, except a clarification that that men can’t now forcibly access spaces and facilities that women have decided are their own.

Why is that such an outrageous concept for transpeople and their supporters.

Changing at the gym would be down to the gym to decide what facilities to offer, so would depend on which gym to choose to belong to.

As regards hospital. Probably have a private room, but might be too ill, so would be on mixed high dependency, as are women.

In answer to the question "where can I go for refuge from domestic violence"
The domestic violence charity Refuge is going to continue with its policy of including trans women.
Nothing has changed there.

Syracute

I wish some of the people here would follow a few transgender folks on social media to gain insight . It’s horrible to demonize this whole subject. Reading some of the comments here I realize how absolutely ignorant most are here and I thank those deeply who give an alternative viewpoint like Glaswee gran .

I quite agree, there is too much reaction and not enough investigation and thoughtfulness in all this... and thank you, glad I am not a lone voice on here.

They campaign for their own spaces or they use the men's. To be honest i think people need to ask why some people told transwomen that they were women, it was a cruel thing to do. But it wasn't the feminists who did it.

Smileless2012

These threads are often reminiscent of 'groundhog day'. What are these 'rights' that we're always hearing about? What 'rights' are the trans gender community being denied that the non trans gender community have?

I found this article from ITV news which may give some insights - its not from a trans organisation but asking trans women the questions

www.itv.com/news/2025-04-18/how-are-the-trans-community-reacting-to-wednesdays-supreme-court-ruling

To bring it down to ground level and what we have often talked about, (the quiet trans living everyday lives) I tried to put myself in the position of my 72 yr old trans friend who transitioned some time ago and can "pass"and has lived as a women and some of the fears they might face

where can I go to the toilet?
what happens if I have a serious illness and need to go into hospital
what if I am subject to personal body searches
where do I change at the gym
where can I go for refuge if I am affected by domestic violence?

(^please don't shoot the messenger, I'm just trying to raise some points, and as I have made clear, support the ruling^)

I think the sooner the Equalities Commission make detailed guidelines available for organisations the better. Since the ruling has specifically said they will protect trans rights perhaps we can look to them as to specifics.

Yes Doodledog, that’s an excellent start.

Not even the ardent trans supporters on SM seem to be able to come up with a list of trans rights that are being denied that don’t involve taking rights from women.

The most frequent cry is trans right are human rights, with no explanation of what human rights are being denied.
I even asked on GN threads -but without success.

Smileless2012

These threads are often reminiscent of 'groundhog day'. What are these 'rights' that we're always hearing about? What 'rights' are the trans gender community being denied that the non trans gender community have?

The rights of men to be able to prevent women from being alone or with other women? To deny us privacy and dignity and to have anywhere to go that is away from their gaze? To subsume us into a group of 'non-men'? To prevent social scientists from researching the lives of women with a view to equalising our life chances? Is that enough to be going on with?

These threads are often reminiscent of 'groundhog day'. What are these 'rights' that we're always hearing about? What 'rights' are the trans gender community being denied that the non trans gender community have?

Syracute I have read through both similar threads and have not seen any hatred or animosity towards transwomen.
Those who have caused the problems for that group and women are the TRAs. They are aggressive and threatening and women have had no option but to fight for their rights.

I believe there are many people like me who will let others get on with their lives whoever they are. It's only when others cause us problems that we have to stand our ground and the TRAs have definitely brought about this court case

Syracute

Ridiculous thing to do !
Now it is 2x hate mongering

The hate mongering as you put it Syracute is still being spread by those who are ranting on on social media that the new ruling
won’t stop them going where they want!

or as I posted earlier,

those TW/TRAwho shout that they are going to fight what they call this stupidity to the end and who say,

“If you think a (use your imagination expletive) court can stop us, you’ve got another expletive think coming.”
Now that’s hatred and will continue to damage the cause of all trans as well as harming women.

Syracute

Syracute

Clearly you are cherry picking for your own sad hate narrative .

Again Galaxy . Sorry for no quotes . This refers to vice versa s comment just above .

Again, for the record, I do not 'hate' trans people. I've clearly stated that more than once on these threads. And as for 'cherry picking', are you denying that some - and yes, I do stress that it is some, not all - very vocal, militant trans people have been abusive and threatening on social media following this case? Because it's all there in black and white for anyone who cares to read it.