Trans women and single-sex spaces

Allira
😄😄
The Bee Gees just wouldn’t have sounded the same if they’ve been women.

Knittingacat

Women's and men's voices are on a spectrum in terms of choir ranges. There are men who can sing soprano or alto, just as there are women who can sing alto or tenor (or rarely bass). So I can't see that gender identity would be a problem in a choir.

Men singing in a sopranist range are singing falsetto.

Women, too, can sing falsetto but, imo, it is not as pleasant to listen to as a male falsetto.

Knittingacat

Women's and men's voices are on a spectrum in terms of choir ranges. There are men who can sing soprano or alto, just as there are women who can sing alto or tenor (or rarely bass). So I can't see that gender identity would be a problem in a choir.

IMO it would only be a problem if it was a women’s choir, which would mean men have to lie to join it. If you already have any I wouldn’t have known members (except you obviously do) with no problem so far, there’s probably no need to do anything.

Many of the new choirs starting up in the North West, including the one I go to, are mixed and you decide which range you prefer to sing, so if you want to be something you aren’t it doesn’t matter.

I agree with Lathyrus3 though, that they have a different timbre, but unless they’re singing solo, the audience are unlikely to know.

Elegran

Rosie51

Doodledog

Sex, even

And in my excitement I put 'woman' instead of sex

A mere slip of the brain. That is nothing - in my post at 09:51:51 I put "woman" instead of "man", which made a pig's ear of the meaning of my whole post.

I did notice, but knew what you meant!

I'm the Queen of typos.

Gender identity doesn't alter anyone's voice. Sex does.

My experience is that a difference in timbre is more noticeable if a woman sings bass which as Knittingacat has said is rare.

Knittingacat

Women's and men's voices are on a spectrum in terms of choir ranges. There are men who can sing soprano or alto, just as there are women who can sing alto or tenor (or rarely bass). So I can't see that gender identity would be a problem in a choir.

You don’t think they have a different timbre regardless of range?

Women's and men's voices are on a spectrum in terms of choir ranges. There are men who can sing soprano or alto, just as there are women who can sing alto or tenor (or rarely bass). So I can't see that gender identity would be a problem in a choir.

Elegran

Rosie51

Doodledog

Sex, even

And in my excitement I put 'woman' instead of sex

A mere slip of the brain. That is nothing - in my post at 09:51:51 I put "woman" instead of "man", which made a pig's ear of the meaning of my whole post.

I didn't even notice, probably because I knew the case, so it read correctly to me.

I understand OldFrill do you?

Smileless2012

My response was to Cabbie about why this issue has become a talking point OldFrill and it became a talking point long before the Scottish Governments ruling about GRC; legislation that was blocked by Rishi Sunak's government.

Another who has no clue as to what's been going on in Scotland.

Rosie51

Doodledog

Sex, even

And in my excitement I put 'woman' instead of sex

A mere slip of the brain. That is nothing - in my post at 09:51:51 I put "woman" instead of "man", which made a pig's ear of the meaning of my whole post.

At last a definition which distinguishes sex (a biological attribute refering to whether an individual is of the half of a species which produces eggs, or large gametes, or of the half which produces sperm, or small gametes), from gender (a term which covers all the other aspects of the psychological and social difference between the two sexes)

"Gender" has been used so often recently that it has blurred the actual meanings of the words. I presume it was because people felt that even using the word "sex" for biological male/female differences was too close to "talking dirty" about the sex act, and that "gender" was somehow a more respectable name for them.

Good news.

Doodledog

Sex, even

And in my excitement I put 'woman' instead of sex

Common sense prevails 👏👏👏

Well done the Supreme Court, but crazy that this needed doing!

Well done the Supreme Court!

Sex, even

The term ‘sec’ has been ruled to mean ‘biological sex’!

Who would have thought it necessary to have a court decide that, but it’s excellent news.

Well done Supreme Court! Woman in the EA means biological sex.

We’re back to the playbook again. Far Right is not remotely synonymous with an understanding of biology or a refusal to pretend that men can become women just by saying they are.

Can you outline your understanding of what Right and Left mean, please, PoliticsNerd? When this came up before on here, it became very clear that the poster using the terms was ‘muddled’ in her comprehension. That poster, whichever of her usernames she posted under, also accused anyone who disagreed with her of racism, homophobia and Nazism, and clearly had a tentative grasp of what those terms meant, too.

Smileless2012

Do you know why this issue has become a talking point Cabbie and why up until recently it has never been an issue, not just for you and your friend but for transgenders in general?

It's because women weren't being subjected to men claiming to be women while displaying their genitalia in women's changing rooms. It's because lesbian speed dating meetings hadn't previously had trans women insisting that they be allowed to attend. It's because women fighting for the retention of safe spaces for women, weren't being threatened and intimidated by trans activists. It's because never before had a rapist, now claiming to be a trans woman been referred too by his defence counsel and the presiding judge as she (Lexi Secker).

None of the aforementioned relate to your friend or to the over whelming majority of those who live as their preferred gender, but this has and continues to happen and it has to stop.

Well put Smileless2012

It’s also time for the blame for this to be placed firmly on the men who have caused the problems, both for females and for all those I wouldn’t have known or living unnoticed TW.
Instead of which, the blame is hurled against females, by males and those who support male rights over female rights.

Madgran77

*I would add that it could be really dangerous for a man with a medical problem to keep insisting on presenting himself as a woman to medical staff.*

This is a really key point in terms of medical treatment and safety.

I seem to remember there was a case where a transman presented as a woman at A & E with severe abdominal pain without mentioning their birth sex, and indeed denying it when asked, which considerably hindered the diagnosis and treatment of an ectopic pregnancy.

My response was to Cabbie about why this issue has become a talking point OldFrill and it became a talking point long before the Scottish Governments ruling about GRC; legislation that was blocked by Rishi Sunak's government.