Trans women and single-sex spaces

Grandmabatty

I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades. However, this recent influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish has to be dealt with firmly. Every organisation has bent over backwards to accommodate them and god only knows why. It is about time this was sorted

The trouble is that there hasn't been any actual "influx of aggressive males" trying to hijack spaces. The idea that there is is nothing buy anti-trans hype. Let's face it, if you are a bad man wanting to access women's toilets for whatever reason, it's a lot easier to just get a job as a toilet attendant than it is to spend months living as a woman in front of everyone you know in your family and work and go through a long and expensive process to get a certificate that no-one is going to check anyway...
There have always been transgender people, as you rightly point out, other than a handful of particularly vocal people, they live their lives as quietly as everyone else, but are now being protrayed as mentally ill fetishists and a danger to others, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Transwomen are abused more than other women, but commit less crime than men.... if you follow that through, the more transwomen there are, the safer all women are.

Wheniwasyourage

and if you prefer to spend time trying to work out if they are male or female, that is up to you, Mollygo

I don’t choose to do that but I shouldn’t have to do that either.

Those TIM/TW who have caused all the problems are quite willing to demonstrate that they are liars and have lied their way into female safe spaces, claiming their lie gives them the right to be there.
Then back comes the cry, sadly from women as well as TW/TIM,
It’s up to you to report them.

Once more passing the buck for their inappropriate actions.

Oh dear, how have I managed to offend so many people? All I’m saying is that our pool has a system that seems to work and could be considered for other places in future. I found it very helpful when taking young DS and DGS swimming on my own. It doesn’t matter how anyone identifies themselves as the place is, like the pool itself, full of people, in swimwear, and if you prefer to spend time trying to work out if they are male or female, that is up to you, Mollygo.

Rosie51, what leads you to think that my views on the admission of transwomen, particularly those who have not had surgery and hormones, to women’s single-sex spaces are any different from those of most posters on this thread? Or that I don’t have the utmost sympathy for lesbians who are told that they should have sex with men who say that they are women? You cannot make assumptions of that kind from the fact that I find common changing rooms (as in Center Parcs, as someone mentioned) a good idea.

Politicsnerd So Madgran77, your opinion is that when it comes to the safety and comfort of women, the intentions behind someone's actions are not important. You seem to be arguing that regardless of what a person means to convey, their behaviour should be condemned as inappropriate. So perception trumps intention. You also seem to believe that not disputeding actions makes proof of those actions unnecessary.

I am quite clearly not generalizing across all cases/situations/events. In the context of the example I gave where Rose:
*walked round the womens changing rooms in boxer shorts
* admitted they were still having penetrative sex with their girlfriend
* consequently and unsurprisingly when surrounded by various women in various stages of undress, had a normal male reaction to that
* continuously asked female nurses when they were getting changed
*stared at women's breasts in the changing room

then yes, whatever Rose's intentions might be, that behaviour is inappropriate.

Just as it would be inappropriate for women identifying as men with no treatment, still having penetrative sex with a man/or maybe pregnant to be wandering around a male changing room staring at their penis's

Equally it would be inappropriate of me as a woman from birth, to walk around a women's changing room staring at other peoples breasts or asking them when they are getting changed.

There is little point carrying on this discussion so I will leave it there. We arent going to agree and having to endlessly explain the points made is distracting from the main points of the thread.

Oh and I would add, that in single sex shower areas, it is not expected to wear swimwear in the shower, that rarely happens. Therefore one emerges with just a towel around themselves, when they come out of the shower, usually to go straight to the spinner machine with swimwear in hand to dry it off.

Wheniwasyourage

Macadia

Why do women have to undress together in one room? They dont use the loo together at home. Why can't sex classifications be removed from such private spaces and just have changing rooms for humans - solo.

I would never dare send a young boy into a mens room out of fear. Little boys can whiz in the ladies room... but wait !?!

Oh my, can you imagine students learning about these awkward times ,hundred years later, in a history lesson? What a bright lot we will seem.

Macadia, I have said this on more than one previous thread on this subject: our swimming pool changing room is for both sexes and all ages. There are cubicles to change in and swimwear must be worn in the showers. Apart from the occasional toddler, nobody is publicly naked. It works, families remain together and nobody cares or notices what sex others are or say they are.

Some pools are configured with unisex and family changing rooms. From what I remember Center Parks had such facilities. Health Clubs generally have male and female locker rooms and disabled areas. When I say male and female locker rooms, these are usually laid out with adjacent toilet and shower areas. Members, whether male or female, do not expect to be sharing that space with an adult member of the opposite sex and would most certainly care and notice if their privacy wasn't respected. There are often a limited amount of curtained off cubicles so at any time members are in a state undress So you speak for yourself in the scenarios you find yourself when you go to your swimming pool, fair enough that's your prerogative. Don't imagine in a different setting that everyone would share your point of view. I can tell you they wouldn't.

Our local council run baths had whirlpools, slides, waves so very attractive for families with children. It also had changing rooms for all sexes and ages. It became clear it was attracting peadophiles. Perfect hunting ground for them and exciting. Cameras were found, children were frightened, prosecutions followed. It closed

Wheniwasyourage
nobody cares or notices what sex others are or say they are.
And you know this how?

And that works fine at your pool Wheniwasyourage but what about pools and other places that still have communal changing and showering facilities that are designated male and female? What are your views on transwomen entering women's sports, prisons, hospital wards, women only groups e.g those for lesbians etc. It is so much more than just toilets and changing rooms.

It is fine to have some mixed sex facilities (although studies gave shown the risk to women us higher in those changing rooms) but it is important to also have single sex spaces. When we talk about single sex spaces we include prisons, sport, etc, etc.

Macadia

Why do women have to undress together in one room? They dont use the loo together at home. Why can't sex classifications be removed from such private spaces and just have changing rooms for humans - solo.

I would never dare send a young boy into a mens room out of fear. Little boys can whiz in the ladies room... but wait !?!

Oh my, can you imagine students learning about these awkward times ,hundred years later, in a history lesson? What a bright lot we will seem.

Macadia, I have said this on more than one previous thread on this subject: our swimming pool changing room is for both sexes and all ages. There are cubicles to change in and swimwear must be worn in the showers. Apart from the occasional toddler, nobody is publicly naked. It works, families remain together and nobody cares or notices what sex others are or say they are.

Mollygo

Grandmabatty
I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades.

Yes, the actions of more recently emerged TW/TIM have done as much harm to those that you mentioned as they have to females.

However, as soon as TW begun to cheat in sports, using the advantages that the male body gives them to take awards away from females and other activities where they perceived their lie about being women brought them an advantage, the rot set in.

Well said Mollygo.

Mollygo

Grandmabatty
I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades.

Yes, the actions of more recently emerged TW/TIM have done as much harm to those that you mentioned as they have to females.

However, as soon as TW begun to cheat in sports, using the advantages that the male body gives them to take awards away from females and other activities where they perceived their lie about being women brought them an advantage, the rot set in.

Totally agree 👍

Grandmabatty
I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades.

Yes, the actions of more recently emerged TW/TIM have done as much harm to those that you mentioned as they have to females.

However, as soon as TW begun to cheat in sports, using the advantages that the male body gives them to take awards away from females and other activities where they perceived their lie about being women brought them an advantage, the rot set in.

Macadia

Why do women have to undress together in one room? They dont use the loo together at home. Why can't sex classifications be removed from such private spaces and just have changing rooms for humans - solo.

I would never dare send a young boy into a mens room out of fear. Little boys can whiz in the ladies room... but wait !?!

Oh my, can you imagine students learning about these awkward times ,hundred years later, in a history lesson? What a bright lot we will seem.

That would mean creating many individual changing rooms, which I presume would be more expensive - or at least that's the argument which would more than likely be made against it.

Galaxy

In the future they will be astounded that there was a time that people pretended humans could change sex.

👏👏👏

Galaxy

In the future they will be astounded that there was a time that people pretended humans could change sex.

👏👏👏

In the future they will be astounded that there was a time that people pretended humans could change sex.

Why do women have to undress together in one room? They dont use the loo together at home. Why can't sex classifications be removed from such private spaces and just have changing rooms for humans - solo.

I would never dare send a young boy into a mens room out of fear. Little boys can whiz in the ladies room... but wait !?!

Oh my, can you imagine students learning about these awkward times ,hundred years later, in a history lesson? What a bright lot we will seem.

BMA!

Fair enough about the role of the BMS as trade unions, I would have been better quoting NHS guidelines.

My concern in the quote was simply to make clear the medical profession don't regard being trans as an "illness" or "aberration" as some still believe.

Rosie51 👏👏👏
It’s ridiculous that those of us who worked hard to have a feminist perspective integral to our various types of employment are dismissed as ‘middle aged hysterics’. Politics Nerd the last group of people I heard dismissing older women using that kind of language would have been some of the men who worked in the engineering factories where i was an office ‘girl’

I’m officially elderly according to my recent nhs involvement. I’m neither middle aged or hysterical whatever my age. I’m an adult human female not a cis either

Gender recognition certificates are easily bought, just because you have one doesn't make you a woman, there needs to be a third neutral space, they should not infringe on biological womens spaces.

The BMA is a trade union first and foremost protecting its members. The GMC is responsible for the regulation and certification of doctors. When you have a hospital doctor who is biologically male declaring he is a 'biological female' and no senior medics are calling him out, then trust in doctors is compromised.
Transpeople should enjoy the same legal rights and welfares as anybody else and I believe they do. What they should not enjoy is additional rights that compromise the rights of other groups. Compelled speech is one such additional right that should not be afforded. Forcing others to lie can never be justified. The 'no debate' mantra was shouted for years to shut down opposition. It doesn't work any more.

I am not hostile I just know that transwomen are men. I think in am age where misinformation is a concern, asking people to accept a lie is not the way forward for society.