Trans women and single-sex spaces

(I was referring to the person/patient in Jennifer Eccles post)

That person was very sick of mind in a number of ways - manipulative - racist - and of course the nurse should never have been called out.

I do have concerns about the well being of transpeople who only want to live quiet lives, respecting others, in the gender that they experience life in.

People who have family or close friends who are trans want them to be able to live as full lives as possible without fear of being attacked or threatened as well often don't post on some trans threads.

Some posters are hostile to the idea of trans per se or classify it, as lesbians or homosexuals used to be, as sick or mentally ill, but

" the medical profession generally accepts and strives to be inclusive of transgender individuals. Major medical organizations like the British Medical Association (BMA) advocate for the rights of transgender people to access healthcare and live with dignity, including respecting their gender identity"

In other GN threads it's been (infrequently, but still there) discussed as part of family and everyday life, not the big dramatic cases.In the waiting lists for counselling/treatment/GRC.

Its a question for me of balance, of finding ways to best live together all round without fears of threats or harm.

Iam64

Nuala McGovern interviewed Julie Bindel about her latest book on women’s hour today. Bindel argued in support of lesbian women keeping that identity rather than gay/non binary etc. she pointed out lesbian identifies female, whereas gay in her view, includes men who tend to get more attention than women.
They also discussed single sex spaces, her views on that remain like most 70’s feminists, ie men should not be allowed
Nuala McGovern persistently put the alternative argument. She pointed out more than once that “some people will find your opinion offensive”.
Go Julie Bindel. Stand your ground. My view was the challenge mirrored the anti terf line rather than simply seeking balance

More people will find the views of Nuala McGovern offensive. Or just plain wrong.

It had become a case of those who shout the loudest win and get their own way.
It is not just or right that bullies should win and women's rights eroded. Perhaps we are beginning to see that common sense is starting to prevail.

No, transgender people should not use facilities for the disabled. As has been pointed out, these were hard-fought for. Transgender people must now fight for their own right to facilities without encroaching on others' rights to single-sex places.

JenniferEccles

Well I for one feel sad for the poor nurse who has been suspended after referring to a male ‘transgender’ patient as he.

This individual is a convicted paedophile, handcuffed to a prison guard who lunged at her, screaming racist abuse, yet because he wished to identify as a woman the nurse was deemed to be in the wrong.

Utter madness.

Added to that, this patient was referred because he had urinary problem. The very experienced nurse was quite correct to refer to him as a man because, to have referred to a male who was to be treated for urinary problems as a female, could have caused confusion and problems for the patient himself.

I hope that nurse is reinstated, receives an apology for the treatment she has received and for the racism she suffered.

I wish the word "gender" could be erased as it has caused many problems when related to sex. Apart from a small minority most people are either male or female.
Changing gender so some seems to mean changing sex which is impossible.

Mollygo

Go Julie Bindel.
Lesbian means you retain your sexual identity. Lesbians are female, despite what some TIM/TW want to claim.
Being lesbian doesn’t involve biological lies.
Homosexual, applies likewise to males.

All the other ^identities which are flooding out of people’s desire for attention involve lying to a greater or lesser extent.
Strange how this lying is acceptable to ^some people.^

All coming from the mistaken desire not to offend isn’t it?
Get a grip I feel like yelling at them.

Grandmabatty

I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades. However, this recent influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish has to be dealt with firmly. Every organisation has bent over backwards to accommodate them and god only knows why. It is about time this was sorted

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Smileless2012

I agree Galaxy. Any space for women shouldn't be entered into by any intact men regardless of whether or not they have a GRC.

Totally agree

Not worth the paper it's written on and don't get me started on the 2 MEN who are both finalists in the WOMEN'S pool (snooker, not water) competition because they suddenly identify as women. Thereby taking away the chances of women to win their own competition.

Smiless2012...Indeed it is ridiculous that the Supreme Court has to rule what the definition of a women is...in fact it's not difficult to define at all seeing as we all came out of one.

I agree Wyllow that better guidelines and legal intervention re practical issues about gender recognition are needed; I still find it hard to believe that we've come to this.

Well done Julie Bindel and there will be far more who don't find her opinion offensive than those who do.

Smileless2012

This is why this ridiculous situation has arisen eaybee. Gender has become a complex social question and because gender has been conflated with biological sex we're in the mess we're in.

If only common sense had prevailed.

Ah, I see what you mean smileless. (as regards your query to me above re "complex")

Gender cant be conflated with biological sex, ever, and I agree I hope the court makes this clear.

The complexity I alluded to is around the practical issues surrounding gender recognition - which clearly need better guidelines and legal intervention.

Go Julie Bindel.
Lesbian means you retain your sexual identity. Lesbians are female, despite what some TIM/TW want to claim.
Being lesbian doesn’t involve biological lies.
Homosexual, applies likewise to males.

All the other ^identities which are flooding out of people’s desire for attention involve lying to a greater or lesser extent.
Strange how this lying is acceptable to some people.

I think they did underestimate the older feminists Iam64, they sort of forgot that women have their own resources ( so can campaign and fundraise) are in positions of power, (politicians, lawyers, etc) and are used to organising. I think it came as a bit of a surprise. Oh and we had Mumsnet which was such a resource in the early days.

Ha Julie Bindel won't flinch if she is called offensive. Another word that no longer has any power. I need to order her book actually.

Galaxy

To be fair I think the nonsense is gradually being put to bed, we have come a long way, mainly due to the bravery of a few women, it is always a mistake to underestimate middle aged women

We need the slogan in our t shirts - except I think I’m officially elderly

Nuala McGovern interviewed Julie Bindel about her latest book on women’s hour today. Bindel argued in support of lesbian women keeping that identity rather than gay/non binary etc. she pointed out lesbian identifies female, whereas gay in her view, includes men who tend to get more attention than women.
They also discussed single sex spaces, her views on that remain like most 70’s feminists, ie men should not be allowed
Nuala McGovern persistently put the alternative argument. She pointed out more than once that “some people will find your opinion offensive”.
Go Julie Bindel. Stand your ground. My view was the challenge mirrored the anti terf line rather than simply seeking balance

For the safety and comfort of women biological males should not impose themselves, with or without testicles and a penis, in areas where it is expected that people will be in a state of undress on a scale all the way to full nudity. Nor should these same males compete in the female class in sports. Intentions are irrelevant when fear, alarm, comfort or fairness are compromised for women.

To be fair I think the nonsense is gradually being put to bed, we have come a long way, mainly due to the bravery of a few women, it is always a mistake to underestimate middle aged women

Madgran77

*Politics Nerd* I can't understand what you are saying in the rest of your post

I am saying perfectly clearly that intentions proven or otherwise are semantics and irrelevant within the context of the safety and reasonable comfort of women. Whatever Rose's intentions were their behaviour was seriously uncomfortable and inappropriate in the context of a womens changing room. Rose has not denied those actions so proven is irrelevant. Intentions ...do not automatically override other people's comfort and sense of safety.

So Madgran77, your opinion is that when it comes to the safety and comfort of women, the intentions behind someone's actions are not important. You seem to be arguing that regardless of what a person means to convey, their behaviour should be condemned as inappropriate. So perception trumps intention. You also seem to believe that not disputeding actions makes proof of those actions unnecessary.

Have I got this right so far?

Let's hope and pray that that's what this upcoming Supreme Court judgement does Dickens and puts this nonsense to bed once and for all.

I agree ViceVersa.

Sadly, common sense seems to be a commodity which is becoming rarer by the day now.

Smileless2012

But the definition of a woman isn't a complex social question Wyllow it's a biological fact.

The biological fact. Unfortunately, there are those learned bods who disagree that it is a biological fact.

And that is really what we are up against.

You cannot change your chromosomes in a way that will alter your genetic make up.

There has to be a recognition that biological sex and gender identity are two separate things. Otherwise, we are doomed.

This is why this ridiculous situation has arisen eaybee. Gender has become a complex social question and because gender has been conflated with biological sex we're in the mess we're in.

If only common sense had prevailed.

So agree, Smileless.

But the definition of a woman isn't a complex social question Wyllow it's a biological fact.