Trans women and single-sex spaces

Politics Nerd I can't understand what you are saying in the rest of your post

I am saying perfectly clearly that intentions proven or otherwise are semantics and irrelevant within the context of the safety and reasonable comfort of women. Whatever Rose's intentions were their behaviour was seriously uncomfortable and inappropriate in the context of a womens changing room. Rose has not denied those actions so proven is irrelevant. Intentions ...do not automatically override other people's comfort and sense of safety.

Smileless2012

Isn't it ridiculous that a Supreme Court judgement is needed to define what a woman is!!!

I dont find it surprising, since it is such a complex social question and practically speaking decisions have to be made day by day in various situations on the basis of law.

Dr Beth Upton doesnt have a GRC and argued legally from that position. Dr Upton would not have had any grounds to do what she did nor argue it in court. It would have been a non starter.

There's a whole number of example that have been given on these threads that would have fallen into a similar category.

I agree it's not a solve all ruling, but I'm not sure what would be certainly as long as facilities don't allow of "third solutions".

As Easybee pointed out, Dr Upton was a thoroughly nasty character. A threat not just to women, but also a threat to the transpeople that Cabbie knows.

Threatening and offensive behaviour isn't exclusive to transpeople however.
We have a public order act as regards threatening or abusive behaviour. Perhaps this should be clarified as of relevance.

Isn't it ridiculous that a Supreme Court judgement is needed to define what a woman is!!!

The answer to that, eazybee, is someone who clearly thinks his 'feelings' override anyone else's personal dignity or distress, never mind their basic human rights.
And to cap it all now, NHS Fife are currently attempting to have the remainder of the tribunal heard in private. Wonder why? Tribunal Tweets have been doing an amazing job live tweeting from the case so far, let's hope they are allowed to continue. This case is too important.

Female or other toilets might work, except those who lie that they are AHF would simply lie that they are female.

The Supreme Court judgement ion the definition of a woman is due this week

They shouldn't be using disabled spaces either unless they are actually disabled. Those facilities were fought for by people with disabilities, they were hard won. There are unisex spaces available, men should not be accessing single sex spaces for women, or facilities meant for those with disabilities.

There will be unisex spaces for those who asked, the ruling means they can't describe facilities as single sex if they allow the opposite sex to use them.

To obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) in the UK, an individual must be at least 18 years old, have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and have lived in their acquired gender for at least two years. They must also intend to live in their acquired gender for the rest of their life. Evidence of living in the acquired gender for two years, such as name changes and gender markers on official documents, is required. Additionally, two medical reports, one from a medical practitioner on the approved list, are needed.

I would still not accept that such a person has the right to use single-sex spaces There are disabled loos available. The behaviour of Dr. 'Beth' Upton, who refused to leave the women's changing room when Sandra Peggie was dealing with a heavy menstrual flood, and his subsequent action in getting her suspended when she took issue with him, is evidence enough. What sort of person insists on intruding on someone in the middle of extremely personal hygiene, then initiates proceedings in the hope of getting her dismissed because she objects to his presence?

Here in Scotland, we currently have a very high profile case involving Nurse Sandie Peggie, Dr Beth Upton and NHS Fife. It has received widespread media coverage, but as for 'proven', it is still ongoing, but the eventual outcome will have a considerable impact on women and girls either way.

The issue for me Wyllow is that a GRC can be issued to a fully intact male who has no intentions of going through with a full transition.

Intact males should not be given a access to women's spaces.

I support the ruling for GRC being the guideline

Because as in the O/P "which guides organisations on how to apply the Equality Act."

Organisations have been flailing around for a long time under self ID.

This is the process people have to go through

www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=what+is+necessary+to+get+a+Gender+Recognition+certificate&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Madgran77

PoliticsNerd
Perhaps you can quote proven cases Smileless?

Perhaps you don't read the news ....? Admittedly I think you will now point out the proven in your sentence and link it to the intentions of the action but frankly within the context of womens safety/comfort/rights to privacy those are semantics. Intentions "proven" or not, Rose went round the Nurses changing room wearing boxer shorts fully in tact and admitting to still having sex with their partner in order to try for a baby!!! Understandably the Nurses going to court were not comfortable with that!

Of course the word "proven" was deliberate; for something to be a fact you need to be able to prove it.

I can't understand what you are saying in the rest of your post.

Transwomen have been around for a very long time and have managed to not upset women by their behaviour.
It's only recently that some aggressive transwomen have caused problems for women.
They have made life more difficult for those transwomen who behave like women and would not harm others.
Aggressive transwomen behave like arrogant men and want to assert what they perceive as their rights no matter how much discomfort they caused women.

I don't know either Cabbie and it's a shame that the reckless and inconsiderate behaviour of a few has made life difficult for those who wouldn't dream of making women feel uncomfortable in women only spaces.

PoliticsNerd
Perhaps you can quote proven cases Smileless?

Perhaps you don't read the news ....? Admittedly I think you will now point out the proven in your sentence and link it to the intentions of the action but frankly within the context of womens safety/comfort/rights to privacy those are semantics. Intentions "proven" or not, Rose went round the Nurses changing room wearing boxer shorts fully in tact and admitting to still having sex with their partner in order to try for a baby!!! Understandably the Nurses going to court were not comfortable with that!

Uniting - until

I don’t know.

Where is the female who does not want to undress in front of a male supposed to go.

So far the answer seems to have been put up with it or don’t use the facilities.

Uniting there’s a choice of unisex as well as separate one group or another has to be disadvantaged.

Myself I support females. Because I am one,
because there are many more females than transwomen so more are disadvantaged
because giving preference to males identifying females has put me at risk of harm.

sf101

Despite all the nonsense we have been subjected to over the last few years biological facts remain just that - facts. You can mess with your body as much as you like but you cannot change your sex, neither can a piece of paper.

Thats why it's called a Gender Recognition Certificate not a sex recognition certificate. You can't change sex.

There are too many to choose from PoliticsNerd and a few examples have already been given. Try Google.

Could anyone please enlighten me?
Where is a ( properly registered) trans person supposed to go to change or use the toilet if there are no unisex facilities?

Genuine question. I have an adult relative who has transitioned female to male, and two friends who have transitioned male to female.

Male bone structure from the skull to the legs is different to female, so you can add bits onto the body, chop bits off the body, but the skeleton can still be identified as male or female.

Despite all the nonsense we have been subjected to over the last few years biological facts remain just that - facts. You can mess with your body as much as you like but you cannot change your sex, neither can a piece of paper.

PoliticsNerd

Grandmabatty

I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades. However, this recent influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish has to be dealt with firmly. Every organisation has bent over backwards to accommodate them and god only knows why. It is about time this was sorted

Where can I find confirmation about this influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish? I, and I would guess, many others, think this is all in the heads of middle-age and elderly women on internet forums, etc.

That doesn't mean calling changing spaces unisex or whatever is a bad thing - perhaps it will finally stop the hysteria.

PoliticsNerd, would you also describe Islamic women (whose right to single sex spaces is protected) as "hysterical"?