Trans women and single-sex spaces

whywhywhy

I feel so afraid and sad for trans people now. The genuine ones have a lesser place now. What have they done wrong? Nothing!

They don’t have a lesser place. The law hasn’t changed, but the actions of some men (TW) and their supporters have changed how safe the ‘genuine’ ones feel at the same time as changing how safe women feel.
Women have fought for the right to feel safe in daily life and various women’s places and to not be cheated out of awards, or threatened with job losses because of men lying that they are women.

Like you I feel concern for the ‘genuine’ trans, but along with that I feel concern for women who, as we have already seen, will still be at risk of attacks, threats and lies like TERF being hurled at them by TW and TRA/TRS some of whom are actually women.

Looks good to me too so come on men, time for you to put any prejudice aside and make all men welcome.

Well said, NotaNana, and that looks good to me, Terribull.

In the course of my life, I have met and worked with several trans women, all of whom worked very hard to pass as female, and just wanted to be able to get on with their lives in peace and with respect.And I genuinely don’t take issue with that.

Where I do take issue is with the politicisation of the subject, with men parading around aggressively and demanding to be allowed into single sex spaces as of right, while being very obviously male, and dressing in a way which no woman I have ever met would, and behaving ditto.

And I strongly object to being labelled as a TERF. As I said above, if a man wants to live as a woman, fine. I will treat them as the person they feel themselves to be, and I don’t have any issue with that. I see that as an act of inclusion.
But demanding access into single sex spaces because you happen to be wearing tights and lipstick while being in full possession of all your biological appendages and making sure that I know that you are so equipped and behaving in an entitled way? No.
And a person born male will die male, irrespective of the amount of surgeries he has undergone in order to present a more feminine appearance.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202504/medium-4lxrf3-1000006391.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202504/medium-a0qi8d-1000006391.jpg

Over on MN, and why not?

whywhywhy

I feel so afraid and sad for trans people now. The genuine ones have a lesser place now. What have they done wrong? Nothing!

I don't think anything has changed though. 'Genuine' transpeople can carry on as before. The ruling hasn't made it illegal for them to use the Ladies (assuming they are TW), just clarified that they are male, which they must have realised given that they made the choice to transition.

I can see that in the (unlikely?) event that someone complains to management that there is a TW using the Ladies at work the decision of any tribunal might be to suggest that they use the Gents. But the reality is likely to be that this won't happen, as people are, on the whole, tolerant.

More importantly though, there may be implications for males getting posts which are legally allowed to be ring-fenced for women only, such as delivering personal care, or rape counselling. Much as this may be worrying for a very small number of transpeople who work in these areas, IMO it is a good thing that women can be assured that when they ask for a female carer they will get a woman, not a TW.

Wyllow3

Then there is often the category, "other".

It depends for me on what the point of the form is. We need to collect data for say a census form to make decisions on resources and some social policy. Others have become OTT.

Diversity and social inclusion matter to me, I don't want to go down the Trump route of totally abolishing DEI.

The forms I referred to suddenly appeared at work, then we received a notice back again summarising the information we'd submitted, telling you your name, dob, etc, your race, your sexual orientation.
Which we knew anyway.

Even taking a recreational course partially funded by the County Council necessitated filling in such forms.

They don't have a lesser place. The law hasn't changed.

I feel so afraid and sad for trans people now. The genuine ones have a lesser place now. What have they done wrong? Nothing!

This is the sort of thing that worries me too, Wyllow. Social science research doesn't exist in a bubble. It drives policy and if we don't know what is happening to women as opposed to men there can't be policies in place to support either sex win necessary.

Then there is often the category, "other".

It depends for me on what the point of the form is. We need to collect data for say a census form to make decisions on resources and some social policy. Others have become OTT.

Diversity and social inclusion matter to me, I don't want to go down the Trump route of totally abolishing DEI.

Iam64

A friend/colleague completing a diversity form for a 6 week old had to tick sex - answer, boy. Next question gender identity - answer he’s a 6 week old baby boy.

My colleague feared being sent on updated diversity training. Yes I know, we’re gender identity sensitive etc but really, how much unnecessary time taken up that could be used talking with a 15 year old genuinely wondering about all kinds of Big Stuff

I remember the days when, confronted with forms to fill in at work about one's age, race, religion, sexuality, one could put MYOB in the box, which many of us decided to do without fear of being questioned.

A friend/colleague completing a diversity form for a 6 week old had to tick sex - answer, boy. Next question gender identity - answer he’s a 6 week old baby boy.

My colleague feared being sent on updated diversity training. Yes I know, we’re gender identity sensitive etc but really, how much unnecessary time taken up that could be used talking with a 15 year old genuinely wondering about all kinds of Big Stuff

It was rather a muddled way of putting it Mollygo.

I meant the long term transwomen who have lived as such dont go round declaring themselves any more than I do "I'm a women". They have a lived reality and it only becomes necessary to "declare" in legal or form filling circumstances.

Which now will have to have appropriate changed guidance as per the law.

Sorry Wyllow3, you said,
Long time transwomen called themselves women implying that they “called themselves women.”

Apparently passports can be a problem if data doesn’t correspond.

Mollygo

Wyllow3
It was intentional lying, but it was and is a lie.
How many women feel the need to announce they’re women?
It was the misuse of the lie to harm or to the detriment of women that made it important to confirm that *only biological women are women.*

People living as transwomen for a long time didn't go around "declaring" anything, they just lived as women - and it was gender wise accepted legally.

I don't think they have suddenly morphed into liars - it will be up to individuals to disclose aspects of their personal life and we'll have to see what sorts of guidance are laid down by the Equalities Commission as regards form filling and what can and can't be said.

Sorry. it wasn’t intentional lying

Wyllow3
It was intentional lying, but it was and is a lie.
How many women feel the need to announce they’re women?
It was the misuse of the lie to harm or to the detriment of women that made it important to confirm that only biological women are women.

Yes - or the total opposite - denial that there are trans people at all - since it didn't encompass their experience - they must be ill or hated per se

Oh I agree with that. Lots of people either didn't know, weren't interested or just wanted to be nice. It is a good lesson that 'kindness' or empathy can sometimes lead people down a terrible path.

Well I came across it in the 1970's as regards discussions on women and men and of course education wise it became "Gender Studies" so it's been in use for a long time.

The GRA obviously bright it into focus as regards trans, it wasn't the "Sexual Recognition Act".

Long time transwomen called themselves women or transwoman and always have done.
I wouldnt describe this as intentional "lying" just how things were.

But as regards the general public, who haven't had a lot of contact with the debate, its my experience that many haven't a clue really about the debates we've had on here.
Thats not a put down, just what I've found. I recall a political meeting from 4 years ago to discuss the issue and only 3/4 of us had any idea really of the issues except for bits and bobs of newspaper headlines and a confusion about sex and gender.

Prior to the misuse of the word woman, if you asked people what their gender identity was, they’d have wondered what you meant.
People asked what sex, not what gender your baby was, usually by asking a boy or a girl?
The word gender started to be used more frequently when people wanted to lie about their sex in order to obtain what they saw as advantages and for those people, lying became their new norm.

I don't know if it would have stopped them Wyllow but conflating biological sex and socially constructed gender certainly seems to have enabled them.

I just wish (and partly fail to understand) why people felt it so necessary to try and argue that biology could be changed as opposed to gender identity.

I realise that that from early in the 2000's the words sex and gender started to be used as if they were interchangeable (I read the GRC again and saw the conflation) so this was part of it.

Mind you, would that have stopped the rise of aggressive men using trans reasons to do what they have - doubt it.