Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

I’m very happy for trans people to have their own designated spaces, toilets, changing rooms, prisons, hospital accommodation, whatever. I’m happy for them to have their own designated categories in sport, literature, the arts, to have a designated quota in situations where quotas are applied.

I absolutely believe they should be able to live their lives free of threat and discrimination.

In short I’m happy for them to have equality and respect.

Now why are they not happy for me, as a woman, to have those things?

I

eazybee

No, women are not scared of the people Syracute describes. They rightly fear the influence of people like Dr Beth Watson, 'Rose' who has caused considerable distress to the Darlington nurses, the prisoner who verbally abused the nurse who correctly described him as a man while describing his urinary infection; the pupils who had teachers suspended for using correct pronouns but not of their choice, the students and academics who drove Kathleen Stock out of her university post, the people who wrote leaflets referring to 'chest -feeders, 'birth delivers' and people who menstruate; Alison Rose who de-banked customers whose views she disapproved of, men competing against women in single sex sport, the many CEOs who endorsed the views of the transgender movement and penalised those who did not agree. Finally all the politicians apparently unable to define a woman.

eazybee I would add to your list the young man who pretended that he was trans when he went into a dress shop with a male friend and got an assistant sacked when he insisted that he try on a dress in the crowded open changing room. When she told him that there was no room for them and no cubicles empty, and to come back later, he went into a strop about his rights. Turned out they were "just having a laugh". Given the fondness of some people for enjoying a laugh at other people's expense, I could imagine a vogue for that kind of fun being suggested - while women had no legal power either to ask to see a certificate of gender transfer or to turf the jokesters out on their ears.

And remember in many ways toilets are a tiny part of it. Prisons, sport, crime statistics, etc if described as segregated by sex, they must be single sex or we take legal action with regard to the institutions that ignore the ruling.

Smileless2012

It isn't simply a matter of ensuring spaces are safe for everyone, it's about ensuring that any spaces that are for one of the two sexes, remain only for people of that sex.

Of course the trans community have a right to have access to spaces where they feel safe, but they don't have the right to access designated spaces which are for those of the opposite sex.

Good post Smileless2012

There have been mentions on here for example of visible gender neutral toilet areas with lockable doors, presumably with floor to ceiling walls to stop upskirting.

That would serve its purpose, though I wonder if men would be any happier having to queue for longer or having to raise/lower the seat. Or whether they would resent the fact that other men have caused the problem meaning they need to do so.
Men who are used to using a urinal involving no touching of flushing mechanisms, might suddenly realise that handling a toilet flush that others have touched is less appealing.
Let’s hope all new toilets are equipped with the no touch flushes.

Sorry but being lectured on respect by people throwing around the words far right, etc is hilarious.

Politics Nerd - not quite as simple as you suggest.
Lia Thomas, the American transgender swimmer has male genitalia. S/he uses the female changing rooms when competing. The female competitors complained they were uncomfortable with Thomas being naked (ie exposing himself) . Additionally, the young women complained he looked at their naked bodies in a way that made them uncomfortable.

Syracute

Are women here on GN really scared about trans women who look , dress and act like women in the bathrooms really ? You won’t in most cases even know . This is a tiny, tiny amount of the population and many no longer have their Adam’s apple nor their penis . When did the world become so ugly ?

Are women here on GN really scared about trans women who look , dress and act like women in the bathrooms really ?

No, I don't really think they are.

What we are 'scared' of is being compelled, legally, to indulge the fantasy of biological males who believe their feelings about their identity overrides - trumps - the reality of biological sex.

I don't think we are concerned particularly about how they look, or how they dress; we are concerned about the principle which is that chromosomes are the fundamental components of DNA, determined at conception, and cannot be altered in any way that would change underling genetic makeup.

A man can indulge his feelings about his identity to any extent he likes - in any way that will make him content with himself, but he cannot become a woman, not even if he has his penis surgically reconstructed.

It's not about how he acts, or how he dresses. Because identity is about feelings, not fact.

It isn't simply a matter of ensuring spaces are safe for everyone, it's about ensuring that any spaces that are for one of the two sexes, remain only for people of that sex.

Of course the trans community have a right to have access to spaces where they feel safe, but they don't have the right to access designated spaces which are for those of the opposite sex.

I do treat people with respect, and I assure you that I am far from ignorant on the law. I am certainly not making untruthful generalisations or trying to score points. I could cite numerous examples to back up what I have said - that information is widely available to anyone who cares to do their research.

ViceVersa

Syracute

Are women here on GN really scared about trans women who look , dress and act like women in the bathrooms really ? You won’t in most cases even know . This is a tiny, tiny amount of the population and many no longer have their Adam’s apple nor their penis . When did the world become so ugly ?

That really isn't the crux of the issue though, is it? This is all about the right to single sex spaces in general, not just transwomen in bathrooms. As I said earlier in the thread, if a man exposed himself to a young girl in the street, he would be charged with indecent exposure. If, however, he does the same in a gym changing room, let's say - but claims he is a transwoman (even if he is a 6ft bearded hulk), then that's somehow ok? How many mothers or grandmothers on here would be comfortable in that kind of situation, or want their daughters or granddaughters placed in that kind of situation?

Acts of indecent exposure or harassment are still criminal offenses regardless of a person's gender identity. If anyone, whether a transwoman or not, were to expose themselves inappropriately in a changing room, they could face criminal charges.

It's a sensitive balance between protecting the rights of trans individuals to access spaces where they feel safe and the need to ensure that those spaces remain safe for everyone else.

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for untruthful generalisations or for assuming intent based on someone's gender identity just to score points. Everyone involved in this discussion is a human being an should be treated with respect.

I do have to wonder if some of the more vociferous cheerleaders for any marginalised group (trans, Pride marches for example) have family members in them hence they want to stick up for them, on here, on tv? David Tennant comes to mind as an example of such shouty defending.

No, women are not scared of the people Syracute describes. They rightly fear the influence of people like Dr Beth Watson, 'Rose' who has caused considerable distress to the Darlington nurses, the prisoner who verbally abused the nurse who correctly described him as a man while describing his urinary infection; the pupils who had teachers suspended for using correct pronouns but not of their choice, the students and academics who drove Kathleen Stock out of her university post, the people who wrote leaflets referring to 'chest -feeders, 'birth delivers' and people who menstruate; Alison Rose who de-banked customers whose views she disapproved of, men competing against women in single sex sport, the many CEOs who endorsed the views of the transgender movement and penalised those who did not agree. Finally all the politicians apparently unable to define a woman.

Absolutely, TerriBull and Galaxy!

"When did the world become so ugly?" In this particular context sometime around 2004, when the militant trans lobby started to flex their muscles literally, to verbally and physically attack women and specifically lesbian women when they wished to stand their ground on their right to women only places. I don't doubt that there were trans women who were respectful and circumspect when accessing women only areas and maybe it wasn't obvious to those around them that weren't natal women, they were never the problem from a threat pov. Maybe read Lathyrus' experiences over on the thread relating to trans women accessing women only spaces and the umpteen testaments from high profile situations such as the women who had to share a locker room with male bodied Leah Thomas for example, to know the distressing situations women were expected to cope with.

Say no to men that should say.

It is also about the right of women to sat no to men. I would say it is an ugly world when that idea of consent is mocked.

Syracute

Are women here on GN really scared about trans women who look , dress and act like women in the bathrooms really ? You won’t in most cases even know . This is a tiny, tiny amount of the population and many no longer have their Adam’s apple nor their penis . When did the world become so ugly ?

That really isn't the crux of the issue though, is it? This is all about the right to single sex spaces in general, not just transwomen in bathrooms. As I said earlier in the thread, if a man exposed himself to a young girl in the street, he would be charged with indecent exposure. If, however, he does the same in a gym changing room, let's say - but claims he is a transwoman (even if he is a 6ft bearded hulk), then that's somehow ok? How many mothers or grandmothers on here would be comfortable in that kind of situation, or want their daughters or granddaughters placed in that kind of situation?

I've always found Eddie Izzard's description of his so called "girly days' from a person in their 60s, ridiculous it trivialises women, who has "girly days" of a mature age?, it conjures up visions of small girls with Barbie Dolls and My Little Pony. I think it just illustrates how worlds apart Eddie Susie is in theie notion of what it is to be a woman. Although as others have pointed out in the notion of to "live as a woman' there isn't a one size fits all, we don't live carbon copy lives, anymore than men do.

Incidentally, what does act like a woman mean?
“These often used phrases,
dress like a woman,
act like a woman,
look like a woman, are only used by or about people who aren’t women.
Women as defined by the Supreme Court don’t need to look, act or dress like women. They simply Are women.” Mollygo

Exactly why the militant trans women hate us and why they won’t back down in spite of the court decision.

I heard an interview with a teacher on Radio 2 who declared that regardless of the ruling she would continue to fight for her trans and binary school support group to use whatever they needed. Their mental health was paramount…

Sorry I fell asleep , thanks Rosie for providing the link. That is the one I saw on X.

Syracute

Are women here on GN really scared about trans women who look , dress and act like women in the bathrooms really ? You won’t in most cases even know . This is a tiny, tiny amount of the population and many no longer have their Adam’s apple nor their penis . When did the world become so ugly ?

The world became so ugly when men decided that they could use female safe spaces AND let the women there know they were men and there was nothing women could do about it!

Stupid men like Eddie Izzard, seeking attention on one of his ‘girly days’ or stupid men pretending to be women who just wanted to demonstrate power play, caused problems for females AND for the often trotted out you won’t even know group who had no other intention than to simply use the toilet and leave.

Incidentally, what does act like a woman mean?
These often used phrases,
dress like a woman,
act like a woman,
look like a woman, are only used by or about people who aren’t women.
Women as defined by the Supreme Court don’t need to look, act or dress like women. They simply Are women.

Are women here on GN really scared about trans women who look , dress and act like women in the bathrooms really ? You won’t in most cases even know . This is a tiny, tiny amount of the population and many no longer have their Adam’s apple nor their penis . When did the world become so ugly ?

Thanks Rosie51 Justine has been a hero in my opinion; their must have been many times when she's faced huge pressure to shut down debate but refused, for which I'm grateful. The responses to Ocado are brilliant aren't they! I particularly liked the reference to Deuteronomy 22:5 KJV!

On one of the many threads on MN, someone has pointed to a few posts on Spiked; they're very "hard hitting" in their vocabulary but worth a look.

Rosie51

I don't know if this is the full statement but just came across this on X. Ocado have received their last order from me!!
x.com/StoatlyL/status/1912979541661720602/photo/1

Thanks Rosie51
Actually on MN there’s lots of feed back about the Supreme Court ruling, including comments about establishments that are already planning to ignore the decision.

I don't know if this is the full statement but just came across this on X. Ocado have received their last order from me!!
x.com/StoatlyL/status/1912979541661720602/photo/1