Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

I’d like to read it too if there’s a link.

Count me in, too? My inbox is always open.

Carlotta

^Really interesting statement from Justine at MN about their position during this time.^

Ooh, I'd like to read that Galaxy where abouts on MN is that? Site stuff?

Me too, any chance of a link from anyone who's read it?

Really interesting statement from Justine at MN about their position during this time.

Ooh, I'd like to read that Galaxy where abouts on MN is that? Site stuff?

I find it rather easy to be nice to nice people as individuals.

I too am nice to people. I'm respectful of their spaces, I don't force my way into places that I know are sacrosanct for others. I understand, respect and acknowledge that, just because I can do something, that doesn't mean that I should. I'm mindful of other's need for privacy and dignity and I know that there are some places that I have no business being there. I don't demand that others give up their privileges just because they've got something hat I want; I worked for my own. I don't demand that people suspend their own reality to bolster or support my own beliefs. I don't get angry or aggressive that other's beliefs or truths doesn't align or reinforce my own. I only join in on competitive sports where I know that my opponent will be a fair match.

These are intuitive skills that every human being should have acquired by adulthood, whether they're male or female. It's called respect.

Doodledog
I recall a time when there was a lot of virtue signalling going on.
Your post reminded me about that, that’s all.

Doodledog

Sorry - I thought I had quoted the Virtue Signalling post from Luminance above. My post wasn't getting at you, Allira.

Understood!!

Really interesting statement from Justine at MN about their position during this time. And naming the organisations who pulled their advertising.
Justine was one of the brave women. I think I would rather be brave than 'nice'.

Mollygo

Virtue Signalling posters, or VS sounds horribly familiar.

Really? I'm not sure what you mean.

😬

Virtue Signalling posters, or VS sounds horribly familiar.

Sorry - I thought I had quoted the Virtue Signalling post from Luminance above. My post wasn't getting at you, Allira.

How Virtue Signalling is that?

I also manage to be 'nice' to people, but maybe mu definition of 'nice' differs from yours? Mine involves allowing for difference of opinion and respecting the viewpoints of others.

I find the idea that you work in MH rather difficult to believe, Luminance. None of your posts suggest that you have had any training in accepting that your way is not the only way to think, and you don't seem able to take on board opinions that differ from your own. Even your user name suggests that you feel you are shining a light on the matter for the benefit of those of us who don't understand

Again, this all feels depressing familiar.

Anyway. How do you feel about the suggestions I made in my earlier post? Or re you going to continue to post vague accusations and refuse to engage with actual issues, in the manner of posters passim?

Luminance

Most doctors I work with state that gender dysphoria is likely caused by several potential biological factors. I let myself be guided by that and would prefer to make no assumptions about the motivations of trans people while more research is carried out.

Do these doctors work for the NHS?

The NHS protocol states that the causes of gender dysphoria are unclear and many factors are involved.

Totally agree with you both, Doodledog and Galaxy. And I do find it somewhat ironic that the very vocal trans lobby are always banging on about how everyone should 'be kind' to them in one breadth, while in the next, flinging vile insults and abuse (including in some cases death threats) to 'TERFS'.

I find it rather easy to be nice to nice people as individuals.

I do think there is a level of audacity to saying to women can we all be friends now.
Imagine there was a movement to remove gay rights (well to be fair the trans movement did that too but putting that aside) and gay people fought through the law to retain those rights, then once they had won, some people said but you need to be nice to those people who threatened your rights. Would that happen or is it only women who have to deal with this kind of nonsense.

Most doctors I work with state that gender dysphoria is likely caused by several potential biological factors. I let myself be guided by that and would prefer to make no assumptions about the motivations of trans people while more research is carried out.

Luminance

Thank you for the answers. Do we foresee any issues that might arise? Disabled toilets makes me a little uncomfortable. Could we possibly turn our attention to making public facilities more secure? I have passed many facilities that did not look at all safe and lived with the discomfort.

Who are 'we', Luminance? Do you mean women? The trouble is that women have already fought for many many years to get facilities of our own, recognition that our lives are often different from those of men, and that there are times when we are vulnerable. We have come close to equality with men under the law, because we fought for it - are we now supposed to choose between giving up what we have achieved and continuing to fight so that men can muscle in?

For a long time we were expected to bunk up when a man wanted to use our spaces because of his feelings, and now it seems that you are asking 'us' to 'turn our attention' to making them more comfortable. Why? That tide seems to have turned, and I, for one, am delighted.

At what point do men take responsibility for their choices? 'Living as a woman' (whatever that means) is definitely a choice if you are a man. A more reasonable approach for someone who is concerned about 'gender' is to work towards making gendered expectations a thing of the past.

Nobody has explained (despite a million threads on the subject) what 'living as a woman' or 'being in the wrong body' actually means, so aligning with 'gender' has to be about preferring to look like or wear or do the things usually expected of women, or men. Those expectations have changed over time, and they differ across cultures - they are absolutely not biological. It used to be considered unfeminine to drink pints or have tattoos, for instance, but (for younger people at least) this is no longer the case. Some religions require women to cover their hair, and others don't - these things are arbitrary and not inherent.

Why not work on just living at letting live? No need to claim to be a woman because you want to wear lipstick or drink Babysham, or to 'transition' to maleness because you are drawn to traditionally male behaviour. Just do it, and let others do their thing, whilst respecting the fact that many women are not comfortable with having men see them naked, or being around them when they are vulnerable.

Luminance

Thank you for the answers. Do we foresee any issues that might arise? Disabled toilets makes me a little uncomfortable. Could we possibly turn our attention to making public facilities more secure? I have passed many facilities that did not look at all safe and lived with the discomfort.

Disabled toilets are designed for people who are less able and have higher seats, grab rails etc.
There is usually only one separate cubicle.
If they are used by those who are quite able, for other reasons, it means those less able may have to wait which could cause problems.

It wasn’t just women only spaces that have been at stake, women were slowly being sidelined. The very word woman was was being written out we saw that in medical information leaflets putting women at risk. Everything was being done satisfy a very small minority at the expense of women.

If I’m speaking to a person the only pronoun I’d use is you or I’d use their name.
No one has the right to declare how they must be referred to in their absence.

I love the comparison to Japanese knot weed FGT's; spot on.

Galaxy

I would never use a female pronoun to describe a man. It is part of why we ended up where we are.

I would and I think have.
It was tricky. There was a group of us, and someone in the group knew the person. So knew their history.

They still very much need to be loved.

Lloyds Bank …. This is what happens when organisations like Stonewall are allowed to take root in any organisation. Their ideology infests everything and like Japanese knot weed is almost impossible to remove.