Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

Trans people are not drag queens

But these drag queens are transgender:

Trinity K. Bonet (Drag Race season 6)
Jinkx Monsoon (Drag Race season 5)
Adore Delano (Drag Race season 6)
Eureka (Drag Race season 9 and 10)
Detox (Drag Race season 5)
Carmen Carrera (Drag Race season 2)
Stacy Layne Mathews (Drag Race season 3)
Lashauwn Beyond (Drag Race season 4)
Jiggly Caliente (Drag Race season 4)
Kenya Michaels (Drag Race season 4)
Monica Beverly Hillz (Drag Race season 5)
Laganja Estranga (Drag Race season 6)
Gia Gunn (Drag Race season 6)
Aja (Drag Race season 9)
Gigi Goode (Drag Race season 12)
Willow Pill (Drag Race season 14)
Jasmine Kennedie (Drag Race season 13,)
Farrah Moan (Drag Race season 9)
Amethyst (Drag Race season 15)
Kornbread (Drag Race season 14)
Kylie Sonique Love (Drag Race season 2)
Peppermint (Drag Race season 9)
Kelly Mantle (Drag Race season 6)
Bosco (Drag Race season 14)
Amanda Tori Meeting (Drag Race season 16)
Dax ExclamationPoint (Drag Race season 8)
Trinity the Tuck (Drag Race season 9)
Jade Jolie (Drag Race season 5)
Valentina (Drag Race season 9)

29 unoffended people, But you've decided, on their behalf, that they should be. Away with you!

They are distinct groups which you ought to know. Both facing discrimination sadly.

Luminance

Trans people are not drag queens.

Excuse me! Many transgender people include drag queens under the trans umbrella. I think you're assuming rather a lot appointing yourself as spokesperson for transgender people even if you may be transgender yourself, which of course you have no obligation to declare..

Trans people are not drag queens.

flappergirl

I don't think the issue lies with transmen (women who want to be men). They don't seem to be particularly vocal or militant. At least, not that I've read about. They also don't have male genitalia.

They don't. Or male hormones, socialisation or conditioning.

They have female bodies, which may heave been modified by medication or even surgery, but on the whole they are not dangerous to others.

Luminance I'm not at all sure why you're so affronted by the term Jock in a frock? RuPaul's Drag Race tv programme has, since 2012 at least, had a section specially called Jocks in Frocks which is for "The queens must transform a group of All-American straight jocks into their drag sisters." If it's a term openly used within the trans/drag community, why are you struggling with it?

Behind-the-scenes drama and exclusive unseen footage from Jocks in Frocks. The queens dish the dirt on the jocks they transformed in this week's challenge.

I don't think the issue lies with transmen (women who want to be men). They don't seem to be particularly vocal or militant. At least, not that I've read about. They also don't have male genitalia.

Is jock offensive in your world Luminance? Or is that another thing you claim to know nothing about?

Still waiting for an answer to my questions to you, but quite happy to understand that you can’t answer.

Mollygo your comment of "** in a frock" was caring?

Haven't M&S had gender neutral changing rooms for years, with lockable doors? So X won't have a problem.
They also are putting check out desks in them to thwart shoplifters.

Thanks everyone

Rosie51

M&S may very well designate their changing rooms mixed sex. If not X could decide to use the male changing room or may decide to take advantage of M&S's return policy and take the cords home to try them on. Women who have objected to M&S changing room policy of use the one you prefer have been told if they are unhappy at the prospect of encountering a male in there they should try on at home.

Rosie51
Your explanation to the limetreefairy is clear.
The M&S that if you’re not happy with the changing room provision you should try the garments on at home, would seem to fulfil the need to be truly inclusive of both females and TW.
To clarify
If you’re not happy with unisex . . . because it means you have to go somewhere where you don’t feel safe . . .
If you’re not happy with single sex . . . because it means you have to go somewhere where you don’t feel safe . . .
Try it on at home.

Yes, it’s less convenient, but it’s equally less convenient for both groups.

X need not worry. M&S's changing rooms have been single cubicle changing rooms for both men and women for a very long time.

Luminance

Women have more rights than simple human rights, because we need them. We have reproductive rights and the right to protections based on our sex. What specifically would I ask for for trans people? Nothing more than they already have, protections against discrimination. I just feel that anyone who agrees with that would stand against the comment I addressed on the second page as unnecessary and crude. Now we can forge a way forward with clarity. Can we as women lead the way in that perhaps? Show that we do care?

So if you can’t explain the rights that trans are not getting with any clarity, how can we, as you put it, forge a way forward with clarity?

What do you want to see on this way forward that isn’t already happening?

No one on here has shown that they don’t care.
Today has been a real example of women leading the way.
Only sad that they have needed to do that in order not to be trodden on.

X could order them on line and try them on in the privacy of her own home, return them if unsuitable. X could ask if there are individual cubicles. (Don't have M & S so not aware if these exist. They used to.)
This is what TopShop used to do with a man who wore women's clothes. The staff would help him with the selection; he would leave a cheque for all the clothes he chose, take them home and try them on, return those he didn't want, and make out the cheque for the amount of the clothes he wanted. Worked very well.

M&S may very well designate their changing rooms mixed sex. If not X could decide to use the male changing room or may decide to take advantage of M&S's return policy and take the cords home to try them on. Women who have objected to M&S changing room policy of use the one you prefer have been told if they are unhappy at the prospect of encountering a male in there they should try on at home.

Might be a good idea to campaign for mixed sex facilities alongside single sex ones then.
Are you suggesting that transmen should go in mens prisons for example, that doesn't happen for their own safety. It seems that sex does matter after all.

I am still quite confused - can someone explain?

X was born a woman.
X undergoes procedures to make her a 'man', as she wishes.
She takes testosterone and other necessary medication and gets a deep voice , copious facial hair and has a bilateral mastectomy.
X is happy now.

X needs a pair of cords from M and S.
X selects a pair from the men's section as befits her revised status.
X needs to try them on.

X now, despite looking like Hagrid, has to try these on in the Ladies changing rooms?

Who would be comfortable with this?

Please can someone talk me through today's ruling?

Thank you Old Frill, Rosie and Galaxy.I have been puzzling over that and even googled it.

Allira

^So it would be really useful to know from those with more expertise like Luminance and Politics Nerd^ . . .

Am I missing something here?

If these two posters say they don't know the meaning of TRA, why would you assume they both have more expertise than others, Mollygo?

I thought she was being facetious

Who's been discriminated against? The women who wanted to protect their spaces? The women who face losing their careers because they address a male paedophile criminal as Mr?

Who's been harassed? The women queuing to enter women's meetings? The women rape victims in the rape crisis centres who are told to "reframe your trauma" if they felt uncomfortable with a trans woman counselling them post rape?

Trans identified male eazybee. It's so the word woman isn't used to describe men if you see what I mean.
We were told we were discriminatory when we said men can't be women, we were told we were discriminatory when we said no men in women's spaces, so we don't really trust any cries of discrimination anymore.

TIM=trans identified male, used because some people thought a transwoman was a woman who was transitioning to man.

I'm struggling with the *phase Luminance finds offensive, something about Scotsmen? Can someone enlighten me, thanks

eazybee

While you are at it would you explain TIM please?

Trans Identified Man - generally perceived as a slur used by terfs