Forgive the long start, but it does outline the struggle against a state controlling education and learning
On one side is Harvard, the nation’s oldest and wealthiest university, with a brand so powerful that its name is synonymous with prestige.
On the other side is the Trump administration, determined to go further than any other White House to reshape American higher education.
Both sides are digging in for a clash that could test the limits of the government’s power and the independence that has made U.S. universities a destination for scholars around the world.
On Monday, Harvard became the first university to openly defy the Trump administration as it demands sweeping changes to limit activism on campus. The university frames the government’s demands as a threat not only to the Ivy League school but to the autonomy that the Supreme Court has long granted American universities.
The federal government says it’s freezing more than $2.2 billion in grants and $60 million in contracts to Harvard (and other universities including other elite ones, but most have caved in - until now.
Already, Harvard’s refusal appears to be emboldening other institutions.
After initially agreeing to several demands from the Trump administration, Columbia University’s acting president took a more defiant tone in a campus message Monday, saying some of the demands “are not subject to negotiation.”
Harvards refusal has now been met with further Trump action
Trump threatened Tuesday to escalate the dispute, suggesting on social media that Harvard should lose its tax-exempt status “if it keeps pushing political, ideological, and terrorist inspired/supporting ‘Sickness’
Sickness?
Thesis their attitude to education from schools to universities, to education in the military, and libraries so far in institutes like the Naval Institute - how long before all libraries.
Burning books next?
Back to Harvard:
“The impasse raises questions about how far the administration is willing to go. However it plays out, a legal battle is likely. A faculty group has already brought a court challenge against the demands, and many in academia expect Harvard to bring its own lawsuit.
In its refusal letter, Harvard said the government’s demands violate the school’s First Amendment rights and other civil rights laws.”
More in the article, ie what is supposed to be “sickness”
But this little quote “took the biscuit” in a way for me.
Obviously some republicans at Harvard are in a complex situation, but
A statement from Harvard’s Republican Club implored the university to reach a resolution with the government and “return to the American principles that formed the great men of this nation
Great men of the nation? Are we in the 1950's?
I don't want any government to tell any university what they may or may not teach.
Whatever views may be held on the behaviours of any institution, these should be open to public debate.
Mr Trump expects total obedience to his every prejudice.
No one in Britain would expect Oxbridge to bow to the whim of Mr Starmer, or any of his predecessors.
Er in this country the government did intervene.
I'm not sure that a single lecturer represents Harvard’s ideology though.
I think it was her close affiliation with WoLF that raised the alarm to be honest.
Obviously I only know what I've read from over here in the UK.
The debate about freedom of ideas and freedom of speech within universities has gone on for over a decade, I have no idea how people have missed it, I suspect it has been worse over here because we don't have anything comparable to the first amendment. It is very difficult for those of us who have been raising concerns for years to now be expected to be agitated simply because it is now the right behaving in an authoritarian manner.
University freedom of thought and speech must be protected from the far right and far left, Trump, no-platformers and other zealots.
Yes, I think that the point being missed by a lot of posters is the point of principle.
That is
Governments have no right to interfere in what universities teach.
Whether you agree or not what is being taught is immaterial.
Indeed you fight for the right of the speech you hate. We have been saying it for years. Where were you all?
Who is “we” and “you”?
You need to make yourself clearer.
Another attack is taking place on Harvard and other universities as regards international student visas from overseas students, now threatening to cut international students altogether
Trumps attacks in education and learning are unprecedented as they are demanding whole departments are cut, that libraries cannot carry banned texts, basically that the only the current governments ideologies are valid. He says Harvard (and other universities of course) is a "joke" "Teaching hate and stupidity"
It includes control of what they teach, who they hire, what they research. It is unprecedented.
So you don't stop the speech of the women who say 'men can't be women', you don't stop the speech of those who try to talk about Bidens son on twitter, you don't stop the speech of those who are against abortion - when those instances happen people need to speak up or a few years later they find their speech curtailed by in this case the right. I can't count how many times I have seen free speech mocked on here or dismissed as a culture war.
More and more evidence that it's sheep and goats time.
I ask again who is “you”.
If you mean posters then say so, if you mean a particular person then say so.
Tbh I think you are getting it all wrong.
I may disagree strongly with certain views, but of course I would fight for the right for anyone to say what they think.
However - free speech comes with a few limitations as you are well aware. The law is there for a reason.
And who gets to decide those limitations Whitewave. Perhaps Trump is deciding what the limitations are now. It's not fun is it?
Galaxy
The universities aren't interested in free speech either, that's the point.
Surely the point is that anyone who believes in "free speech" will not try to shut down the "free speech" of others with whom they disagree.
Galaxy wrote:
"Indeed you fight for the right of the speech you hate. We have been saying it for years."
Also and more generally ; to be silent is to consent. Human rights must continually be defended every where no exceptions
foxie, I presume Galaxy means that universities too include politicians.
Galaxy
I would think it was a compliment to be refused by harvard to be fair. The first thing that comes to mind is antisemitism.
👏👏👏
Whitewavemark wrote:
" free speech comes with a few limitations as you are well aware. The law is there for a reason."
The number and quality of "limitations" identifies who one is politically and psychologically.
For instance, I gather WWM is liberal on both counts. I certainly am as regards limits of free speech, not to mention free assembly , and free thought.
Under martial law, if I believed the war was just, I'd comply with stricter limits.
PS God help us!
FriedGreenTomatoes2
Galaxy
I would think it was a compliment to be refused by harvard to be fair. The first thing that comes to mind is antisemitism.
👏👏👏
Asked and answered Thu 17-Apr-25 21:37:47.
Harvard matters are are part of a wider movement in a number of areas against the imposition of tyrannical rule for example where Due Process is being ignored, Press Freedoms is being attacked and limited, individuals personal emails are being combed for "anti Trump" and "anti Christian "sentiments" and so much more
outlined very effectively here
theconversation.com/donald-trumps-chilling-effect-on-free-speech-and-dissent-is-threatening-us-democracy-253139
Wyllow, thanks for the excellent link which I read.
However, do you agree that popular awareness is more easily enlightened by human interest stories ?
For example "To Kill a Mocking Bird" .
I listened to Harvard speak out on the issue on a panel on tv last year. I was embarrassed for them. How they couldn’t read the room.
Wyllow, reference to your OP:
Hollywood may yet ride to the rescue.
Grannylynj
You have a lot to say
And thank goodness she takes the time and trouble to say it!
True news story shows America still lives good despite Trump:
www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ice-tries-detain-man-tennessee-home-neighbors-form-human-chain-n1032791?fbclid=IwY2xjawJvGVdleHRu
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