J K Rowling has nailed it - re Starmer and the trans issue

But they aren't female they are male. Society has put those people in a terrible situation. Eventually reality was going to intrude.

Whitewavemark2

My soon to be DIL has a friend whom I’ve met who is apparently a trans. She is tiny/fragile very pretty and very feminine. In fact I can’t see anyone suspecting that she started life as male. I certainly didn’t, and even now I know, I simply see her/him as a girl friend of my GS and his partner and relate to her as such.

How on earth is she/he going to use mens lavatories, or if imprisoned (no chance! Too compliant and law abiding) what on Earth would happen to her.

It would be brutal and cruel in the extreme.

I agree, but this is what some trans/tra behaviour has brought us to need.
Advocate gender neutral toilets, with enclosed cubicles opening onto a general space, then we can all feel safer.

What on earth are you talking about!

You clearly lack empathy and understanding.

This intelligent young person seems entirely balanced and happy with her lot, as she works towards her MSc in psychology.

She house-shared with GS, DIL and others and she was totally accepted as a female.

In sports- if the concern is she has an unfair advantage, why not screen all teams for unfair advantages- instead of gender? A lot of All-Stars will be excluded because they are built differently. But it will be "more fair". Eg, our town had weight limits on youth football. How about putting limits on "builds" for all sports? ...I think any other objections to a person deciding who they are is scary.

JaneD666 I haven’t noticed much outrage about trans men using men-only spaces, or competing in men’s sports, yet presumably they will no longer be allowed to do so. The reason there isn't outrage about transmen in men's sport is because transmen do not get to oust men from their sports. Unless you're able to link to the times when a transman took the medal, the prize money, the sporting record? I wonder why that is? Could it be that transmen, being female, are at a disadvantage to males who are generally taller, definitely have bigger hearts and lungs, better hip angles for running, denser bone, and bigger muscles with faster twitch reflex? You don't tend to hear about transmen being a danger to men in any other areas either, no male awards are given to transmen, most transmen would never be strong enough to be a physical danger to men. It's a completely different set up.

LizzieDrip when I questioned you when you referred to the transman engaged to a relative of mine as 'she' you said you were always consistent and yet I notice you refer to Shirls52000's transwoman daughter as she and her. Not so consistent after all then?

I don't know whitewave you might need to talk to the people who told them they were female, they have done incredible damage. We obviously can't organise single sex spaces on whether people are pretty are not.

My soon to be DIL has a friend whom I’ve met who is apparently a trans. She is tiny/fragile very pretty and very feminine. In fact I can’t see anyone suspecting that she started life as male. I certainly didn’t, and even now I know, I simply see her/him as a girl friend of my GS and his partner and relate to her as such.

How on earth is she/he going to use mens lavatories, or if imprisoned (no chance! Too compliant and law abiding) what on Earth would happen to her.

It would be brutal and cruel in the extreme.

Witzend

I never understand why those who say that biological sex is a fact, and that a woman is an adult human female, should be seen as anti trans.

I for one certainly am not. I just want women-only spaces, such as changing rooms, to remain as such, and for biological males, especially those who have the great physical advantage of having gone through puberty, to compete only in male sports.

Because they need to justify the ill treatment women have received because of the actions of some trans and TRA.
Nobody, except the perpetrators and their ilk, thought what happened to Brianna Ghey was right.
So is using that to excuse the harm women and girls including my DGD have suffered at the hands of trans helpful?

I never understand why those who say that biological sex is a fact, and that a woman is an adult human female, should be seen as anti trans.

I for one certainly am not. I just want women-only spaces, such as changing rooms, to remain as such, and for biological males, especially those who have the great physical advantage of having gone through puberty, to compete only in male sports.

the killers of Brianna Ghey ( sorry if mis-spelt) felt justified as she was nor born female. In a professional capacity, I've seen a lot of hatred towards trans people. To be fair, I've also seen acceptance. This ruling is not helping any acceptance .
Women have the ability to go into cubicles in public toilets , so why is there such fear ?
Trans issues are very different to issues about domestic abuse - hence I still don't understand why JK Rowling is so incensed.

suelld
^ Thank you Wyllow3 for giving the full quote.^
NOTE. To All you Trans haters, he said …

There are no trans haters on GN.

Yes we have been through all this before on MN Lizzie, always fun.

It's not about the trans people only - it's all those who are born intersex... what will happen now? All those of you who are lauding this decision obviously do not have any intersex people in their family.

Galaxy

Welcome all the new arrivals

Yes, it’s good to get a range of view points isn’t it

It is also because she has fought for female victims of domestic abuse for years.

Starmer has to defend his views because he is a lawyer and is expected to tell the truth, and has not done so.
J.K.Rowling has 'a bee in her bonnet' because for years she has been verbally abused and threatened for expressing perfectly legal views.
I was not aware that trans people were not being treated with dignity. Rather, look at the protesters in Parliament Square and see what women have been subjected to, for far too long.

Shirls52000

I am si disappointed by this thread and some of the hatred and vitriol being displayed. As mum to a trans woman who is now sitting at home distressed beyond measure because she feels unable to go out and socialise with her friends as she’s no longer allowed to go to the ladies, she must go to the gents and risk being abused or worse. This is not a victory for women’s rights, what about the many many women who may look less than feminine, they are also now going to be challenged when simply wanting to go for a wee. One of the anti trans activists Nicola Murray has been found guilty of the worst type of child abuse, and my daughter is crying at home because people like Nicola Murray are accusing her of wanting to abuse women in toilets, you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Do you really think she would have chosen to be transgender, of course not, I sincerely hope none of your families end up feeling body/gender dysmorphia, heaven help them if they do, it took enormous courage for her to come out as transgender and now she feels as though her life is worthless, well done, I hope you re proud. Yes I m angry, there have been transgender women around for years using women’s toilets with no problems, thus has been a recently manufactured issue, probably to cover up something else and had set back women’s rights enormously, not to mention the fact that there may now be transgender men wanting to use the ladies as they were born female or even men pretending they are transgender in order to access ladies toilets, it’s been nothing short of cruel to a vulnerable minority group in the UK shame on you all

I truly feel for your daughter Shirls52000 and I understand your anger, as her mother. I hope the hate and vitriol shown to trans people by some will lessen over time. At the moment there is a sense of ‘victory’ for some women - not all feel that same sense by any means. Some of us feel deeply uncomfortable and conflicted about the whole situation.

Your daughter is lucky to have you to support her and I’m sure her friends will be there for her too. She may feel sad and even afraid right now, but she’s obviously strong, as she’s already been through a lot. I really hope she’s able to go out, with her head held high, and face the world as who she is.

Stay strong💐

Welcome all the new arrivals

Carlotta

I'm genuinely sorry that your daughter is so upset Shirls5200 but feel that your anger should be directed at the men who have abused transgender women by insisting that obvious males infiltrated women's spaces. Public toilets are only one small part of the problem that women have faced; rape crisis centres, prison cells, women's safe houses, changing rooms and women's sports. It's true, and acknowledged, that people like your daughter just want to live their chosen life in peace and quiet, causing problems for no one. Regrettably, a huge number of men abused the privileges that people like your daughter, and all natal women, no longer feel safe using. It's not us you should be angry with.

Carlotta
Yes, the few have ruined it for the rest who just want to go about their lives peaceably.

Wyllow3

Carlotta

PMQs this afternoon have been lively.

Does the prime minister now accept that when he said that it was the law that trans women were women, he was wrong?"referencing the Labour leader's previous comments.

Starmer didn't directly answer the question, but said he welcomes the Supreme Court's ruling.

Still hedging his bets.

On a subject as contested as this maybe best to look at the whole quote ?

Here's the PMQ in full

Badenoch said

"Does the prime minister now accept that when he said that it was the law that trans women were women, he was wrong"

Starmer replied

Let me be clear, I welcome the Supreme Court ruling on this issue. It brings clarity and it will give confidence to women and, of course, to service providers.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission will now issue updated guidance, and it is important that that happens and that all service providers then act accordingly.

This government’s approach, and my approach, has been as follows: to support and implement the supreme court ruling, and we will, to continue to protect single-sex spaces based on biological sex, and we will, but also to ensure that trans people are treated with respect, and we will, and to ensure that everybody is given dignity in their everyday lives

I do think this is the time now to lower the temperature, to move forward, and to conduct this debate with the care and compassion that it deserves. And I think that should unite the whole house.

Thank you Wyllow3 for giving the full quote.
NOTE. To All you Trans haters, he said …

“ we will, but also to ensure that trans people are treated with respect, and we will, and to ensure that everybody is given dignity in their everyday lives “

Why not follow that example instead of all the visciousness that issues from some peoples mouths!

I fear this ruling will stir up hate . Why does Keir Starmer have to defend his views - in agreement or not- ?He just has to uphold the law but as the supreme court sated, this ruling does not stop the need to treat all people with dignity.
I wonder why JK Rowling has such a bee in her bonnet about this subject ?

Carlotta

I'm genuinely sorry that your daughter is so upset Shirls5200 but feel that your anger should be directed at the men who have abused transgender women by insisting that obvious males infiltrated women's spaces. Public toilets are only one small part of the problem that women have faced; rape crisis centres, prison cells, women's safe houses, changing rooms and women's sports. It's true, and acknowledged, that people like your daughter just want to live their chosen life in peace and quiet, causing problems for no one. Regrettably, a huge number of men abused the privileges that people like your daughter, and all natal women, no longer feel safe using. It's not us you should be angry with.

Yes Carlotta

If anyone reads this or any other threads about this subject they will find posters expressing concern and worries about the impact on those trans who want to live peacefully.

Far more posts like that in fact than I have ever seen from trans, parents of trans, friends and family who are trans, expressing concern for women who have been damaged, traumatised, threatened, cancelled etc because of those trans who see it as an opportunity to cause the aforementioned problems.

Numerous posters have assured us that you can’t tell the difference, as if that makes it better, when in fact some of those who are against women’s rights go out of their way to look how they ^think women look like so if we can’t tell the difference, how do we know if they’re going to be harmful or not.

The only way round that is that men and women should stop lying that they are the opposite sex. If you’re trans, be trans.

As heart rending for those trans who mean no harm as it has been and will continue to be for women, all because if the actions of men, however they identify.

suelld

Bridie22

P.S. Thanks to JK Rowling and all the brave women who helped this ruling to finally become law, you are all awesome.

Brave women who … !
Stupid women aggravating a minor issue more like! Brave women are women who threw themselves in front of horses to get us the vote!
So much smoke for a match!

Such aggression on the thread all of a sudden.
Rather proves the point.

They are men, there will be nice ones and not so nice ones. Telling people they are in the wrong body is cruelty beyond words. And for those who don't believe in souls absolute nonsense.

The majority are gentle souls who cannot live in what they see as the wrong body.

Yes, we know and no-one on this thread has said anything different, at least not as far as I can tell.

The problem is the aggressive trans-activists, those who are misogynists, taking advantage of situations to push their own agenda.