Is there an argument for saying that UK citizens who support Trump are unpatriotic?

For Pantglas, you're getting confused - like half of the American nation between Socialism and Communism.

I'm not a Labour supporter (nor any party, how much incompetence do you need to see for evidence?) - but as your "admiration for all things Communist" would include Stalin and Mao bumping off well over 100 million combined of their own citizens, and the former Iron Curtain, and present-day N Korea being so proud of their Utopian society they need to keep their people locked in by armed guards and high fences, I'm not totally sure if the likes of Momentum would agree with you?

Several European countries run what is essentially 'Democratic Socialism' with a great standard of living, and a healthy safety-net for those disabled, or down on their luck, maybe you should go and look at them?

Whatever our views we look down from different hilltops, be our differences upbringing, circumstances, experiences, education and knowledge or lack of, religions, loyalties , gullibility etc.. Our hilltops may change as we go on too.

Thankfully there are usually enough things we find we have in common with others to understand them or if not then to at least find common ground with even if we don't always agree.
We have to survive so we have to know we are sharing thi world and it isn't ours alone to do what we want with or just take of it what we want for ourselves.

Well said, FranP, I agree with every word.

I go support Trump and will continue to do so . This man stands by what he promised his people unlike our leader .

I NEVER EVER thought I could see any of Trump's point of view BUT:
- the US is experiencing financial problems the same as the rest of the world, so what makes it their responsibility to subsidise us?
- Cheap imports the expense of home grown hurts them (and us) in both quality and financial terms.
- Illegal immigrants have jumped the queue for right to be there over legitimate applications, they fuel a black economy, undercut wages, & pay no tax. While a broad brush solution is not the answer, something did need to be done to stem the tide.
- why should it be up to him (or us) to spend vast resources providing security to the rest of the warring world? Just because they have done so up until now does not mean it is their responsibility to get involved in long drawn out wars

GrannyGravy13

Unless someone is actively supporting and campaigning for a leader of another nation who is actively at war with the U.K. of course it isn’t unpatriotic.

Over the years I have admired leaders of other nations, just as I have despaired about others.

I am extremely patriotic, adore my country of birth (UK) more so since living abroad.

I find it hard to understand why some people (yes I know, but am not sure how else to phrase it) accuse those who have voted differently to them or admire policies and indeed the ethos of another party are treated with disdain and on many occasions on GN called idiots, uneducated or on several threads suggesting a test in order to assess one’s capacity to vote . . .

Very well put.

Freya5

GrannyGravy13

Unless someone is actively supporting and campaigning for a leader of another nation who is actively at war with the U.K. of course it isn’t unpatriotic.

Over the years I have admired leaders of other nations, just as I have despaired about others.

I am extremely patriotic, adore my country of birth (UK) more so since living abroad.

I find it hard to understand why some people (yes I know, but am not sure how else to phrase it) accuse those who have voted differently to them or admire policies and indeed the ethos of another party are treated with disdain and on many occasions on GN called idiots, uneducated or on several threads suggesting a test in order to assess one’s capacity to vote…

You speak so well. Thankyou.

Well said GrannyGravy13

Trump & JD have the sort of patriotic policies that we in the UK wish this present and previous traitorous lot would have enacted. We support Trump for that reason.
From the last failed Tory crowd to the present Labour unprecedented attacks on pensioners; WASPI women; the Disabled; overburdening the Education system to the point of collapse; prioritising cultures and beliefs from other lands over those of our indigenous peoples; directing the NHS to cut waiting lists by any means, fair or foul; spending £Billions on aid and loans to support the 'net-zero' fiasco, both at home and abroad - whilst our power costs are the highest in the world; legislatively increased employment costs that have caused thousands of job losses; the housing sector cannot even keep up with the needs of UK citizens, never mind the taxpayer fully-funded encouragement (from funding the French coastguard through the laughably named Border Force > waiting coaches, to free hotels, entertainment, meals & spends) system to import even more immigrants; and the cost of just existing, spiralls out of control.
And what about a WOKE public sector system that allows employees to work, via the internet, from some holiday destination called 'working from home'?

PoliticsNerd

It's okay folks, calm down. I think we all know now that posting has to fit into a tiny little cliche on this forum. There are definitely pleasanter places to be.

It's a chat forum.

Perhaps the question would be better posed on a forum designed for political debate.

I forgot, it wasn't a question! Or is it?

nanna8

No. I think supporting Starmer is unpatriotic though.

Give the poor beggar a chance. He has to try to fix 13 years of excessive borrowing, lying about the black hole we are in. We have NO money but are still supporting the EU black hole because of a Boris negotiated exit agreement!.
I have a pension and am paying less for my fuel than I did last year and the year before - the winter fuel allowance paid for out of excess VAT income which is no longer there as fuel prices drop. Why should I get help just because I am old??

People spent years talking about benefit scroungers, and when he tries to tighten up on slack and arbitrary processes he is being mean to the poor. He cannot win with fickle folks

trump watched old movies
drstrange seems tobe the main one

GrannyGravy13

Unless someone is actively supporting and campaigning for a leader of another nation who is actively at war with the U.K. of course it isn’t unpatriotic.

Over the years I have admired leaders of other nations, just as I have despaired about others.

I am extremely patriotic, adore my country of birth (UK) more so since living abroad.

I find it hard to understand why some people (yes I know, but am not sure how else to phrase it) accuse those who have voted differently to them or admire policies and indeed the ethos of another party are treated with disdain and on many occasions on GN called idiots, uneducated or on several threads suggesting a test in order to assess one’s capacity to vote…

You speak so well. Thankyou.

Politicsnerd, you could say that about any country. Even so-called friendly nations will necessarily put their own interests first.

Are you aware that your own perspective is left wing? Some in this country might call that unpatriotic.

We all have to be well informed and objective. There is no making a proper judgement without an in depth perspective and Trump’s tactics are to surprise and obfuscate so it is not always clear at first what he is after. It doesn’t do to respond to his dog whistle.

It’s also a little rash and unjust to be labelling others in a generic way.

Why oh why do we keep going on about TRUMP? He's a pantomime villain, bad orange man, someone we love to hate and in so doing fail to notice all the other things that are going on in the world that can do far more harm. For instance the WHO treaty which, if it goes through, will deprive us of our sovereignty in matters 'medical' - arguably 'unpatriotic'? Starmer's avowed preference of Davos over Westminster, (yes, he did say so) - surely unpatriotic? I could put my tin-foil hat on and wonder if Trump is a tool of certain groups, such as multi-national corporations and the so-called 'deep state', put there to draw our attention away from things that matter - such as said WHO treaty. Like Goldstein in George Orwell's '1984'. ''1984' is a very useful read - but then Big Brother and Goldstein can, if we wish, be projected according to political/emotional bias.....

Yes

+Trump is a fraud and an opportunist.
He is using the 'cover' of Patriotism to appeal to the person who blames everyone and everything for their own personal
situation*
In reality he is feathering his own nest and keeping other opportunists satisfied with financial gain
He and Farage are manipulators but both have little intelligence to go with it. Those who follow are of the same ilk

Agree

Garage is the biggest Trump supporter going - Reform voters support Farage and therefore Trump.
So yes - unpatriotic, dense and irresponsible for allowing racism to look ‘respectable’.

PoliticsNerd

In answer to henetha, a question mark simply indicates that the sentence before it is a question.

Rosie51 asked: "What is a discussion if not opinions?"
An unfounded opinion is not a discussion even though opinions formed are what makes a discussion. A discussion needs opinions that are grounded in something more than just a feeling or a hunch and that "something" is the explanation of how you arrive at your opinion. When opinions are unfounded, they don't add to the conversation; they weigh it down and prevent us from engaging with each other. A healthy discussion isn't just about having opinions, it's about being able to explain why you hold those opinions, and being open to having your opinions challenged and refined by evidence and reasoning.

In answer to henetha, a question mark simply indicates that the sentence before it is a question.

Precisely, so henetha is correct.
A question is asked and that invites answers which can be opinions.

The answer to Rosie51 does sound somewhat pompous.

Benid0rmbelle

I'd have to question our present, and previous, government's patriotism to it's own UK citizens first and foremost. The UK is now just a means to an end for other nations for what THEY want, rather than what WE want.

Perhaps the answer to that is in Mollygo's post -
"If patriotism is caring about your country and feeling pride at the achievements of your countrymen and women then yes. If it's belligerence and a stupid ignorance of the rest of the world, no."

Other countries exist, and exist in a world where they and we are increasingly in contact and dependence upon one another. If we ignore them and are belligerent towards what THEY want, they are likely to increase their belligerence toward what WE want.

Statecraft is more subtle these days than sending in a warship or imposing a crippling tariff.

There have been so many threads on patriotism on GN and MN and always similar comments about what people think it means. So no reason not to have another thread.

2023
www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1325237-Can-you-be-seen-as-being-patriotic-if-you-support-one-political-party-no-matter-what-they-do-to-the-country-as-a-whole

2021
www.gransnet.com/forums/chat/1304751-Patriotism-what-do-you-think-about-it?pg=2

2014

www.gransnet.com/forums/chat/1209932-Patriotic

Or my favourite (not by me) from 2004

If patriotism is caring about your country and feeling pride at the achievements of your countrymen and women then yes. If it's belligerence and a stupid ignorance of the rest of the world, no.
Personally I'm very proud of the history of the various civil rights movements in this country, from the Peasants' Revot to the Tolpuddle Martyrs, William Wilberforce to the Suffragettes, to the founding of the NHS and welfare state. Just wish there was more of it!

I'd have to question our present, and previous, government's patriotism to it's own UK citizens first and foremost. The UK is now just a means to an end for other nations for what THEY want, rather than what WE want.

Here's Starmer on patriotism.

"To be proudly English means to be proudly ourselves, to hold firm to our convictions and be able to speak our mind – and be civil when others speak theirs."

“The cross of St George belongs to every person who loves this country and seeks to make it better – a symbol of pride, belonging and inclusion.

“We cannot allow it to become the preserve of the tiny minority who want to drive hatred in our communities.”

nanna8

No. I think supporting Starmer is unpatriotic though.

Why?

nanna8

No. I think supporting Starmer is unpatriotic though.

Really?

I think supporting Trump is utterly misguided and tends to be the same folk who support Reform.

However, it’s entirely their choice.

Talk about patronising. Snotty wth it. I fink there are kangaroos loose in the top paddick in nerdland.