Is there an argument for saying that UK citizens who support Trump are unpatriotic?

Thanks PoliticsNerd

Thought this would be interesting. It's from Times News
www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4_4iDuv8t4
The first third explains what the expert call a " joint investment agreement" rather than a trade agreement with Ukraine and is very close to the Memorandum of Agreement signed between Biden and Ukraine. It goes into a lot of detail on how it will work, which Ukraine is seeing as a success.

It also has a piece on the recent slump in the US economy and comments on some good results from this for Europe.

Of course if you read the info (linked above) it's not only for undocumented people - it's basically for "foreigners" of all sorts

It says these people might have one if not entitled to an SS number

A foreign national legally residing in the United States who, based on number of days in the country, is filing a U.S. tax return.
A foreign national who is a student, professor, or researcher in the United States and is filing a U.S. tax return, but does not qualify to receive a SSN.
A dependent or spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident.
A dependent or spouse of a foreign national on a temporary visa.

Exactly!

So with an ITIN number rather than an SS one, they pay taxes, so they officially exist, but have no entitlement to Social Security since they don't officially exist? Sounds like heads we win, tails you lose, yet a lot of noise about them not contributing to the nation.

The ITIN number is specifically for those who have to file U.S. taxes but are not eligible for a Social Security Number..
As I said earlier these were not shared with border force - they are just to facilitate paying tax.
I'm pretty sure there is a change in process though re sharing the details.

I have just looked up who can have a tax number- here's the page - it specifically includes undocumented migrants:

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/facts-about-individual-taxpayer-identification-number-itin?hl=en-GB

The Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) is a tax-processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to ensure that people—including undocumented immigrants—pay taxes even if they do not have a Social Security number (SSN) and regardless of their immigration status.

Elegran
The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) provides them with an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN)
Everyone with an ITIN who has earned income have to file federal income tax returns. They may also need to file state and local income tax returns depending on where they live.

It's not like an NI number which is issued at birth (though we don't get it till we are 16 I think).

In the UK, part of the identification details at HMRC is a National Insurance number. I presume the US also has similar ways of identifying people and assessing how much tax they should be paying. How do the undocumented migrants get the equivalent?

How do they pay their taxes if they are undocumented?

itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/?hl=en-GB#:~:text=Grand%20Total%20of%20All%20Taxes,35.00%25

Just found a little vox pop.

www.instagram.com/reel/DB4mGPFy4G9/?igsh=M2kxNzVnbmNpNXV4

90 billion in 2022.
But beware as i haven't checked sources

*ITIN

I think there's something going on at the moment that means the UTIN people may soon be able to reveal the details to border force...

I haven't followed this closely.

Don't believe they get a SS number but they often have an ITIN

Can an “illegal” migrant in the US get official documentation and social security, at what stage do they become officially “legal”?.

FranP - I don't think this:

Illegal immigrants have jumped the queue for right to be there over legitimate applications, they fuel a black economy, undercut wages, & pay no tax.

is actually quite true.
They DO pay taxes on the whole.

Most do work and do earn an income. They are required to pay federal, state, and local income taxes on their earnings. They often have to pay federal and state payroll taxes (including Social Security and Medicare taxes) - these are withheld from their wages so not negotiable.

Even though they may be paying taxes, they are generally not eligible for any benefits such as Social Security and Medicare. They pay a lot into this fund and are almost always not eligible to take from it.

Aside from this, sales taxes are inescapable on goods and services they purchase.

If they are lucky enough to own property, they are also responsible for paying property taxes.

The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) provides them with an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN)
Everyone with an ITIN who has earned income have to file federal income tax returns. They may also need to file state and local income tax returns depending on where they live.

Suppose employers hire undocumented workers - they are still obligated to withhold the federal and state income taxes and the employee's share of payroll taxes if the worker provides a ITIN.
I may be wrong but think they need an ITIN if they don't have an SS number.

Cash in hand is obviously another matter but as loads do seem to work in jobs for companies they are paying taxes.

No more than if US citizens criticised Keir Starmer? Silly premise.

Yeah I really hope that never happens to me. I once put a comment on the wrong work thread that was only meant for certain ears, it took me ages to recover from that one

Oreo

😁 Lucky you didn’t say more then Shinamae

😁 Lucky you didn’t say more then Shinamae

Shinamae

Nice to see you posting again Yvonne 🤗
I have been in Ibiza for a week and coming home today not looking forward to arriving in UK at 12:30 am and then a two hour drive home but it is what it is as they say 😂

That was obviously meant to be a p.m. 😬

Nice to see you posting again Yvonne 🤗
I have been in Ibiza for a week and coming home today not looking forward to arriving in UK at 12:30 am and then a two hour drive home but it is what it is as they say 😂

DrWatson

For the OP, if you don't want opinions, why ask?

I'd guess some folk could admire Chump, and would still count themselves as 'patriotic', if you count them as being unpatriotic, you'd have to include quite a few countries when their policies affect us badly (eg France, and their waving dinghies full of immigrants over to us?).

The evidence suggests that most people here think Chump is a demented fruitcake, fair enough given the ten years or so of evidence since he emerged with political ambitions that he's a sexist, racist fraud, liar and thin-skinned bully with an Emperor complex. Even Forbes aren't sure if he's been bankrupt 4 or 5 times, and for those folk admiring his present wealth, I think that inheriting $200mill+ from daddy is probably quite a help?

Trade experts all round the planet are quite convinced that his Tariffs plan will mostly affect his own people, though at present his fans are buying into the premise that countries send USA a cheque every week with the surcharge amounts, as opposed to the reality that American stores just up their prices and pass the 'tariffs' on to American citizens.

If anyone is still a supporter, they should just look at his ideas re taking over Canada and Greenland (t would actually make MORE sense if USA was run by one of them, not the other way round!).

😁👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I suspect you’ve misunderstood my post DrWatson.

Like you I have no political leanings and certainly no admiration for the far right/fascism or far left/communism. My reference was to the Labour Party historic flirtation with the latter.

Regarding certain European countries with Democratic Socialism governments with policies for those down on their luck - would those include the ones now introducing restrictions on immigrants?

For the OP, if you don't want opinions, why ask?

I'd guess some folk could admire Chump, and would still count themselves as 'patriotic', if you count them as being unpatriotic, you'd have to include quite a few countries when their policies affect us badly (eg France, and their waving dinghies full of immigrants over to us?).

The evidence suggests that most people here think Chump is a demented fruitcake, fair enough given the ten years or so of evidence since he emerged with political ambitions that he's a sexist, racist fraud, liar and thin-skinned bully with an Emperor complex. Even Forbes aren't sure if he's been bankrupt 4 or 5 times, and for those folk admiring his present wealth, I think that inheriting $200mill+ from daddy is probably quite a help?

Trade experts all round the planet are quite convinced that his Tariffs plan will mostly affect his own people, though at present his fans are buying into the premise that countries send USA a cheque every week with the surcharge amounts, as opposed to the reality that American stores just up their prices and pass the 'tariffs' on to American citizens.

If anyone is still a supporter, they should just look at his ideas re taking over Canada and Greenland (t would actually make MORE sense if USA was run by one of them, not the other way round!).