Reform activists depict female cabinet ministers as cows in abattoir.

Grandmabatty

There's little point in arguing with certain posters. There's a pattern. They make sweeping generalisations on every thread. People correct their 'truth' and they double down, attack posters with irrelevant points which are never backed up with relevant statistics or research and they never apologise for being wrong. They are quite convinced in their arrogance that they say it therefore it must be.

It’s David49 that’s getting attacked by posters not anyone else!
Your comments are extremely unfair.

Reform voter?

But don't worry, when Reform is in a position to Put the Great Back into Great Britain men and boys will find there are plenty of jobs because women will be back where they belong, chained to the kitchen sink. Women politicians?

I agree and none of this is anything to do with the original topic. Thread drift happens but this appears to be a deliberate (and apparently succesful) attempt by a man to derail from the original topic about a man demeaning women. Why is that?

You're right, Grandmabatty. I should know better than to reply.

There's little point in arguing with certain posters. There's a pattern. They make sweeping generalisations on every thread. People correct their 'truth' and they double down, attack posters with irrelevant points which are never backed up with relevant statistics or research and they never apologise for being wrong. They are quite convinced in their arrogance that they say it therefore it must be.

David49

DD I would expect your response defending higher education, the same from the other teachers defending the existing system.

It’s not good enough, far too many are not achieving success in the career they choose.

I'm not defending HE - if anything I am defending students/graduates from crass generalisations about their not having a clue. Seriously - how many have you employed and in what capacity? How can you possibly generalise like that without embarrassment?

It may be that the ones you know have been clueless, but in that case have you looked at your recruitment process to see whether that has been flawed? I would suggest that anyone who really expects a new starter to be fully aware of all they need to know about 'the adult world of work' is expecting too much and is doomed to be disappointed. If they also have a chip on their shoulder about graduates it won't help either.

How do you know that 'far too many are not achieving success in the career they choose'? The fact that they are choosing careers at all shows that their education, by your standards, must have succeeded, surely? If the only point of education is to prepare people for work, that is. I don't know what your definition of 'success' is, but whatever it is, I have no idea where you'd get the information necessary to know that 'far too many' don't achieve it.

I may well be wrong, but I get the impression that you would prefer to see schools churn out semi-educated young people grateful to work for those who have had the good fortune to become employers, and to make profits for them without expecting a career because they accept their 'lot'. Fortunately, the expansion in education has led people to expect more. Yes, some will be disappointed, but that's life. At least opportunities are open to more people than there used to be.

eazybee

It used to be the case in education. Students went to teacher training colleges for three years, four if they did a B,Ed, and during that time they did at least three lengthy teaching practices which gave them the experience of being in the classroom and the opportunity to discover whether they were suited to it. Now it is an expensive nine months bolted on to a degree which may have nothing to do with education, then they enter teaching and discover it is not for them.

It was like that for most primary school teachers, but secondary school teachers have nearly all followed the three year degree + PGCE route (until relatively recently). When I started teaching, some of the older teachers had just done a degree with no teacher training at all.

David49

DD I would expect your response defending higher education, the same from the other teachers defending the existing system.

It’s not good enough, far too many are not achieving success in the career they choose.

Could that be because there are a shortage of vacancies in some careers?
You seem to be laying the blame entirely on the education system and don't take into account other factors.
Why?

Oh I think teacher morale is low, although it's very dependant on which school and where it is and how well managed it is.

Despite being in a "red wall" area (they've just gone Reform) ie a lot of disadvantaged and one presumes disenchanted parents the Primary village school my GC go to has not had teachers leaving or classroom problems serious enough to disrupt teaching and learning... a very good headteacher .

So it varies tremendously.

btw, I noticed in the "list of factors" in teachers leaving that Covid was noted as contributing very seriously to Secondary School well being.

Other major factors noted were admin and related pupil safeguarding or special needs tasks taking hours up to 60+ a week, feeling unvalued, parental behaviour, student behaviour.

DD I would expect your response defending higher education, the same from the other teachers defending the existing system.

It’s not good enough, far too many are not achieving success in the career they choose.

eazybee

It used to be the case in education. Students went to teacher training colleges for three years, four if they did a B,Ed, and during that time they did at least three lengthy teaching practices which gave them the experience of being in the classroom and the opportunity to discover whether they were suited to it. Now it is an expensive nine months bolted on to a degree which may have nothing to do with education, then they enter teaching and discover it is not for them.

This is true but the education system is also losing very experienced teachers. My DD and SiL had been teaching for 25 years plus. Many of their friends with the same experience have left too.
NQTs leave as they soon realise that the job is much harder than they realised. Teaching is not the same as years ago. My family loved their jobs when they started out but it has now become unpalatable for many teachers.

David, you really can't speak for all employers . Nor can you generalise about 'many graduates'. None of us can possibly know much beyond our own immediate experience - whether that is of being an employer in a particular field (even then probably limited to the company we own), as a teacher or childcare professional or as someone who works with graduates and liaises with employers and professional bodies.

You may have come across disenchanted teachers (as have I) but neither of us can speak for all of them. The ones I know may have different reasons for being unhappy from the people you know.

I spent decades in universities, and can honestly say that the majority of graduates have more than a clue about the career they want to follow - specially since fees became so expensive. They have regular input from professional bodies and ask probing questions from the first year. Staff also ensure that they get 'real life' experience of working in their field via assessed projects and so on - things may have moved on since you were a student.

Of course they won't know what working full time is like until they've done it, but that is true of school-leavers and always has been. How can any of us know what something is like until we've done it.

It used to be the case in education. Students went to teacher training colleges for three years, four if they did a B,Ed, and during that time they did at least three lengthy teaching practices which gave them the experience of being in the classroom and the opportunity to discover whether they were suited to it. Now it is an expensive nine months bolted on to a degree which may have nothing to do with education, then they enter teaching and discover it is not for them.

David two people in my family have dropped out of teaching but not because of the behaviour of children and students. The government are to blame by imposing unnecessary workloads and the poor working conditions you describe are down to them.
Most young graduates don't know what a job they take will be like until they actually do it. That has always been the case unless it's medicine or nursing for instance.

“I think David you are catastrophising on a massive scale about schools by taking "worst example" and generalising.”

So you think that pupils are well behaved, teachers morale isn’t low and they are well prepared for the adult world of work

Well I’m sorry but employers would disagree with you, many graduates dont have a clue what it’s like in the career they have chosen, or even if there are opportunities in that field. Teachers would be a very good example where the drop out rate is very high, plenty of opportunities but poor working conditions

They do realise that women vote too do they?

Interesting! They are doing it by banning a number of SM platforms but not Whatsapp or chat places.

"However the minister, Michelle Rowland, has said the ban will include Snapchat, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and X. Gaming and messaging platforms are exempt, as are sites that can be accessed without an account, meaning YouTube, for instance, is likely to be spared.

The government says will it rely on some form of age-verification technology to implement the restrictions, and options will be tested in the coming months. The onus will be on the social media platforms to add these processes themselves"

You are right about the cultural shift however, thats the key.

Well Australia has just banned social media for children, the best way is usually a cultural shift alongside legislation, like the smoking ban, drink driving legislation. It doesn't mean it never happens but it becomes socially unacceptable.

What had you got, practically, in mind, Galaxy? good to read .....I definitely think "control" and safety concerns, but teenagers use social media/internet as part of learning too or just WhatsApp to contact each other or parents?

I support all moves to ban social media for under 16s. To be fair it doesn't matter what I support, it will be the situation in 5 - 10 years.

Churchview

Joseph Boam is grim. His social media is full of Tate quotes, telling women to get back in the kitchen and anti immigrant/muslim sentiment.

Here's a quote from him, “Depression isn’t real. You feel sad, you continue with life because there’s no alternative. You will always be depressed if your life is depressing. Fix it.”

This is appalling. even under Reforms T's and C's, this is way out of line. Reform may have a small number of women leaders - I wonder what the new Mayor in Lincolnshire would have to say about him - but letting him through the process on the basis of support for Tate alone should exclude him.

As for his comments on M health, even worse, as it has funding implications for both child and adult and indeed Older Adult support from Local Councils in the form of locally funded social work support (which includes dementia) already cut to the bone. (fortunately LA dont fund NHS support, but its a partnership).

I think David you are catastrophising on a massive scale about schools by taking "worst example" and generalising.

DGS goes to an ordinary comp. in a now Reform area (red wall) and your descriptions just dont "fit".

It's not schools who have changed the situation where we all back in the 60's and 70's expected there to be a job. It's not schools who have closed down manufacturing in Red Wall areas.

And maybe above all, it's not schools who have fostered the pernicious and insidious effects of social media. Unfortunately much use is outside school hours and in the home, but I definitely support the moves to ban phones in schools (its happening more and more).

Doodledog 👏👏

Doodledog an excellent post. Thank you

Adrian Edmondson's autobiography is an eye opener about the severity, cruelty and failure of corporal punishment in schools during the 60s and 70s.

Joseph Boam is grim. His social media is full of Tate quotes, telling women to get back in the kitchen and anti immigrant/muslim sentiment.

Here's a quote from him, “Depression isn’t real. You feel sad, you continue with life because there’s no alternative. You will always be depressed if your life is depressing. Fix it.”