TW acknowledges why women don’t feel safe

A relative of mine had a partner, for a v short time fortunately, who was small & slight and appeared perfectly nice (I met him).
He told her he'd been accused of assaulting his sister and it was all rubbish. My relative met his mother who supported this version.

A few months later he was imprisoned for sexual assault.

No man should ever be accepted as a woman.

I have never used she when talking to a woman or a TW, because I address them as you. If I was talking about them to somebody else (why would I do that?) I’d use his name rather than a pronoun which I consider to be inaccurate.

As you say, it’s personal choice, but for me a lie is a lie whatever the context, and a lie about sex change, whether by word or bodily implication is still wrong.
Of course if there hadn’t been all the problems caused by a small number of cheating, lying, violent TW, and a large number of violent TRA, it probably wouldn’t be such an issue. But males are males, whether they’re quiet and gentle or tall, muscular and deep voiced and it has been declared that only biological females are women.

Mollygo

The topic I intended in the OP was referring to TW competitors in female sports.
The TW you refer to Wyllow3 is unlikely to want to compete. Nevertheless, if he did wish to take a woman’s place in any situation, being small, gentle and thoughtful wouldn’t change the fact that he’s a male.
In fact if he did that, then thoughtful as defined by the dictionary meaning showing consideration for the needs of other people would not apply either.

It's an agree to disagree here as to the use of pronouns. (I see differences in people's choices in posts above depending on our POV)

Since it is legally OK under the GRA for those with GRC to be called she I am comfortable with using she for this friend (who of course never claims to be biologically female)

but only when I feel comfortable doing so not across the board of course.

Galaxy

I think rosie is asking about sport not interacting with children.
Female spaces are based on generalisations, its why small men aren't allowed in, gay men aren't allowed in, old men aren't allowed in.

Thanks, point taken that post was about sports specifically.

The topic I intended in the OP was referring to TW competitors in female sports.
The TW you refer to Wyllow3 is unlikely to want to compete. Nevertheless, if he did wish to take a woman’s place in any situation, being small, gentle and thoughtful wouldn’t change the fact that he’s a male.
In fact if he did that, then thoughtful as defined by the dictionary meaning showing consideration for the needs of other people would not apply either.

Wyllow3

Of course not, but the TW I know is small, gentle and thoughtful - we cant generalise I'd be glad for her to care for my GD especially as she's had children herself long ago as a Dad, but as I said above it was a very thought through later in life decision.

I was of course talking about this specific case about sportswomen who are NOT SAFE when up against transwomen players with vastly different physiques.

As individual men don’t go around with “I will hurt women ” “I won’t hurt women” stamped on their heads we have to make a generalisation for women’s safety based on the one thing we do know about men.

“I am stronger and I can hurt you.”

I think rosie is asking about sport not interacting with children.
Female spaces are based on generalisations, its why small men aren't allowed in, gay men aren't allowed in, old men aren't allowed in.

Of course not, but the TW I know is small, gentle and thoughtful - we cant generalise I'd be glad for her to care for my GD especially as she's had children herself long ago as a Dad, but as I said above it was a very thought through later in life decision.

It’s ridiculous.
Would you want to see your D or GD up against and tackled by this (wo)man mountain?

Galaxy

My husband is of no risk to women, he has no business in women's spaces. Women are saying no. If men continue to access spaces knowing this I think that is a clear indicator they are a risk.
Whatever men may do to their body they remain men.

Actually, Thats the crux of the matter.
If a man insists on using women’s spaces, taking female places, participating in female sports (OP) or any other business that is detrimental to females’ wellbeing, then he is a risk to women.
It doesn’t matter what he looks like or whether he has had surgery or taken drugs or had counselling, he is still male.
What is it about the lie that you can change sex that has people agreeing that lying is OK?
It wouldn’t be acceptable if I claimed to be the person whose passport identity I had stolen, or if I claimed to be under 11 when entering and winning a children’s competition.
So why is this pernicious lie so acceptable.

Dress how you want, appear how you like, but don’t lie and definitely don’t demand that others accept your lie.

My husband is of no risk to women, he has no business in women's spaces. Women are saying no. If men continue to access spaces knowing this I think that is a clear indicator they are a risk.
Whatever men may do to their body they remain men.

But if someone born male has undergone surgery before living as a woman how can she possibly present a sexual risk to biological females? (I use the feminine pronoun because using the masculine pronoun would be inappropriate and discourteous in such a case. ) Nanna8's friend had indeed had surgery.

nanna8 if your friend was born male then he remains male, however he presents himself.
I couldn't care less how a man looks or dresses unless he claims to be a woman.

Oh for goodness sake. My friend identifies as a female and has changed her name to a female name. Any other information required ? She dresses as a female and she looks quite feminine but not in a flashy or ostentatious way. However, she does stand out and there are people here who have problems with that. We don’t get eccentric people here on the whole, we are a nation of conformers and any one a bit ‘different’ tends to get ridiculed. Unlike the perfect world where some seem to exist. Lucky people.

Freshair

I think that if they have what is essentially 'gender dysphoria' they can still believe in biological sex. It's just awkward and isolating when they feel one way and look another

Am sure it must be, and not an easy decision to make but this can’t be put ‘above’ women’s rights in any way.Sport is or should be about biological sex as the male body will always be superior in strength and muscle and power.

valdavi

I'd hate to think of TW being attacked even if they did dress in an attention-seeking way. They shouldn't have to adapt their dress-style to be safe.

I hate to think of anyone being attacked, but women have frequently been attacked by men over what they wear.
They shouldn’t have to adapt their dress-style to be safe, but the way they dress is often used as an excuse for why they were attacked.

Except Caitlyn Jenner really resented her then spouse, Kris, when she did not want to stay married to a woman. Kris told Caitlyn that she would support her but would not stay married.

I agree of course, I suppose its a matter of individual character as to how we all dress.

I'd hate to think of TW being attacked even if they did dress in an attention-seeking way. They shouldn't have to adapt their dress-style to be safe.

nanna glad to say that my friend who is trans wasn't rejected by family, but she did make the decision much later in life after much agonising. I'd hate to think of her being attacked, but she doesn't dress in a particularly attention seeking way.

Richard craniums

I was going to Google this but have just got it - eventually. I must be slow on the uptake today.

nanna8
Looks and dresses like a female.
We’ve had this discussion before.
What does it mean?

If a tall female has short hair, wears trousers, a shirt and a jacket and not wearing make-up does that mean she looks like and dresses like a man?
She still wouldn’t be one.

Why were they shouting abuse? Do Aussies Richard craniums usually shout abuse at exceptionally tall people?

Whatever the reason, I’m sorry your friend suffered that. Over here, it’s more likely to be biological women who are threatened or abused by TRA and those trans who are out to cause trouble.

Mollygo

Lathyrus3

Well, I’m going to keep pushing my solution.

The team is a trans team. If there are insufficient numbers of trans, the team is an inclusive one that will also accept those who are not trans.

They can be male or female since trans believe that there is no biological sex.

If it works it would be a good idea.

Usually teams choose the players who will bring the best results for their team.

I’m picturing the composition of a rugby team of TW choosing the non-trans players they think will bring the best results.

Then I’m picturing the composition of a team who would be willing to play against them.
How would you picture the composition of either of those teams?

It would be up to the governing bodies of a sport to decide on criteria that would be applied in creating trans teams. Whether there should be a majority of players who had transitioned or whether, since biological sex does not exist in trans culture, the gender of any person (ie the lifestyle they have chosen) is actually relevant.

I don’t think it’s only about “friendlies” The inclusion of all genders in a trans team would mean there were enough teams to do that at a local level. But also enough trans teams to compete against each other at district, national and international level.

Also for individual sports like athletics.

People with specific disabilities who are also minority groups have been able to organise this, so it should be possible for trans as a minority group to do something similar.

People with gender dysmorphia acknowledge their biological sex but believe that mentally and emotionally they need to live as the opposite sex.

The trans movement states that biological sex is undefined and so there is no bar to anyone taking part in a trans team.

Mollygo

nanna8

A trans friend of ours won’t go on public transport because she doesn’t feel safe. I don’t know what the answer is unless you have special teams for trans athletes but it might be difficult finding enough team members.

So is that a transman (she) or a transwoman (he) who doesn’t feel safe on public transport nanna8?
Why does your friend not feel safe on public transport?
The problem with finding enough team members should not be solved by putting males in female teams.
Even if all the other members of the team were happy with it, they would need to find teams who were willing to play against them.

She was born male, married and had 2 children who will now have nothing to do with her. She looks and dresses like a female except she is very,very tall. Exceptionally talented and a really lovely person but has had a couple of bad experiences on trains from Richard craniums shouting abuse at her and threatening her. Some years ago she had an operation and transitioned.