Denmark and immigration

butterandjam

Primrose53

Interesting that Simon Reeves can comment like this but those of us who have been saying the same things for years get called racists on here.

I have spoken on here about there being ghettos in this country where white people dare not go and been told I am talking rubbish.

I have also spoken about many Muslim women being treated as second class citizens and been accused of lying.

I have said that there should be more integration and that anybody who comes here must learn to speak English and not rely on their small children to translate.

I have spoken out many times about forced marriages, FGM and first cousin marriages.

I agree with the Danes.

?? Simon Reeves wasn't "commenting like this". He listened to Swedes and Danish people of all ages and races talking about what life is like there.

I know that. i worded it badly.

Primrose53

Interesting that Simon Reeves can comment like this but those of us who have been saying the same things for years get called racists on here.

I have spoken on here about there being ghettos in this country where white people dare not go and been told I am talking rubbish.

I have also spoken about many Muslim women being treated as second class citizens and been accused of lying.

I have said that there should be more integration and that anybody who comes here must learn to speak English and not rely on their small children to translate.

I have spoken out many times about forced marriages, FGM and first cousin marriages.

I agree with the Danes.

?? Simon Reeves wasn't "commenting like this". He listened to Swedes and Danish people of all ages and races talking about what life is like there.

fancythat

Getting women out of the "ghettos" has always been more about culture I would have thought.
So wont make much difference? If any?

The rules of certain religions wont be changing for women, where ever they are? Unfortunatly?

Else they could have changed by people moving countries. But they dont appear to have. At all?

I am not sure that is right fancythat, I would argue that many immigrant communities have integrated into the broader British culture, while also respecting their own cultural values. In the 19th and 20 the century, the Irish, once despised as much as any 'coloured immigrant' in the 1960s and 70s, many refugees after WW2, the Indian community, Hindus, Sikhs and others, Immigrants from the Carribean. Look at the number of inter racial marriages.

Some communities have not integrated, and the majority of those are the Muslim communities, no matter where they come from, but I think we should not look at them and generalise from them

But religions do change, but retrogressively as well as progressively. I spent a part of my childhood living in Malaya, now Malaysia, a muslim country. This was late 50s/60s and then Muslim women did not cover their faces or hair, or wear, what is now defined as 'modest' clothing. They either wore European style clothing or the traditional sarong kebaya.

Islam is a religion which has regressed into so called 'traditional' forms, that have more to do with men asserting control over women, when it looks as if they might challenge their authority.

The difference between the two historic great religions, Catholic and Islam, is that, however male dominated catolicism was/is. It always had its parallel female hierarchy of orders of nuns, who reached well up the male hierarchy who both took responsibility for educating women and produced outstanding members, like St Teresa whose learning and knowledge was respected and listened to by the then pope. Many priests and bishops were wary of the power some orders of nuns or their leaders had and wouldn't readily get in conflict with them. This female hierarchy is completely missing in Islam.

The problem with ghettos, is that state schools effectively become religious schools, with up to 100% of children coming from the same religious background. I think much more has to be done to make these schools more open to the general national culture, make sure that Islamic community leaders do not have too large a say in how schools are conducted and subjects are taught. Perhaps redrawing catchment areas to make them more inter racial, ensuring that the teaching body is not entirely of the predominant religion

The three episodes were all most interesting, particularly the one about Finland. I particularly found it surprising and amazing that the whole population have so mush pride and responsibility for their nation. With the threat of Russia so close, the whole community is involved in the military protection of their land, they are far better equipped and trained than the British.

SR always makes very insightful documentaries, he asks the unexpected questions and gets really involved. A very different and far more informative format than the usual. He did a fantastic one about all the ex Russian states which was a real eye opener for me

Interesting to read your post, and I do not doubt that the information you quote is what you actually heard on the programme you refer to, but it is not quite accurate.

Muslim women and girls may wear a head-scarf or full hijab in public if they want.

What lawgivers are seeking to stop, is small girls from the age of six being forced to go to ordinary council or private schools wearing headscarves.

As a teacher, I am not happy about this prohibition, as I would honestly rather see all immigrant children in the state schools, or in private schools that accede to the same norms, than shut away in private fundamentalistic Muslim schools, as many although not all of them, do not comply with the Government white papers on education.

What Muslim girls and women may not do, is to present themselves for oral or written exams completely covered by a burqua and face veil, and just try to prove their identity by waving their passport or national health card at the examiner.

One woman in a burqua with the lower half of her face covered or masked looks very like another, and we need to be sure that we are examining the candidate whose name in on our list, rather than her sister, cousin or class-mate who feels more certain of passing the exam.

Danish citizens, and foreigners living here may not be masked in public -this was brought in years ago following some terrorist attacks. A bus driver or train ticket controller has the right to deny a masked person entry to the vehicle.

No physician or surgeon will be willing to treat a woman who refuses to let her face be seen as proof of her identity.

The so-called ghetto question, is partly a matter of slum clearance, partly a matter of wishing a more even distrubution of members of different ethnic groups, in the various houseing schemes and partly an attempt to stop the growing number of teenagers , both children of immigrants and children of people whose ancestors have lived in Denmark since the Stone Age, from adopting the "gang culture" they have learned is "smart" from watching certain kinds of American films.

Most immigrants, irrespective of where they come from, are decent, hard-working people, who while retaining their religious affiliations and most of the customs of their country of origin do so within the confines of the law of this country, by for instance burying their dead in coffins, as it is illegal here simply to place a shrouded corpse in the grave.

Unfortunately, there are some immigrants who do not seem either to respect our democracy or wish to learn our language, or integrate themselves. Whether it is possible to completely solve these problems or not, is hard to say.

On the bright side, some years ago, we experienced neo-Nazis defacing Jewish headstones in our cemetaries on or around November 9th. Since then, Jewish sections of the cemetaries in Copenhagen are patrolled by groups of young Jewish and Muslim men as well as by our police at the start of November. The initiative to this group was taken by the religious leaders of Copenhagen's mosques and the Chief Rabbi.

In case you are wondering 9th November 1938 has gone down in history as Die Kristalnacht.

I never really know what to think with this one. On the one hand I believe that women should wear what they want but on the other, is it really a choice when there is so much obligation growing up that it is "normalised"?

If I were to visit a culture where the norm was to wear a headscarf, that is probably what I would do. So is it then fair to say, if you visit a culture where that is seen as oppressive... You don't wear one?

I think integrating fully is a good idea but culture and religion do cross over in places. Perhaps like other religions it needs to change to fit the situation but is it then discriminatory to tell someone their values and ways of life are unacceptable?

Whatever happens, women and girls need to be taught that freedom to choose and be protected where needed.

I had a walk in the park last week and there was a whole class of children there I'm guessing because they were from a school without any playing fields. It was nearly all children from our Muslim community and they were playing mixed cricket together. Most girls either weren't wearing or had taken off their headscarves.

How powerful this simple situation can be for onlookers and participants (one friendly dog wanted to play and a girl asked the owner if they could jump through a hula hoop....).....

Going back to the family in Denmark moved from their accommodation of many years to a more integrated area, I would have liked to have seen where they were moved to and was it just the husband and wife or the older children/adults as well. The 4 children were in professional careers and could well be married and living in their own flats/houses.

It could have been that the original flat was too big for a middle aged couple on their own and a more suitable sized flat was available in a more integrated area. Not enough information was given. It will be interesting to see how the Danish experiment turns out in a generations time.

I really enjoyed the programme and learned a lot about Scandinavia. SR presents well.

Here in Manchester I see more burkas and face coverings worn by young women than I saw twenty years ago.

Good for you Primrose53 for speaking out with your thoughts on immigrant integration, there are too many ready to shout racist.
I think what the Danes are doing is interesting and I hope it works well, by better integration and nipping future problems in the bud.Much better for the women in the family and next generation.

I agree Wyllow3, it is pesonally getting to know people, workplace & schools that suddenly makes people realise what a lot they have in common.
Reform do very well in many areas that have hardly been affected by immigration.

And of course in the workplace and schools.

Perhaps our differences lie in how we think things could be improved as well as choices in how we "paint the picture".

As long as prejudice or simply lack of understanding, however covert, exists in mainly white communities, it's going to be hard to demand of people they move, and vice versa.

I'd say there are some "white" communities that are hostile to incomers, see it in terms of "us and them".

Not sure how to address this, however, except often its personally getting to know people that breaks the barriers down.

I have a Danish DiL and our Danish born GC has moved back to Copenhagen to live and work.

There is little integration and definitely some no go areas.

Anything that makes a society safer and happier has to be given a go.

I wish the Danes good luck with their idea, and if it is successful I would be interested for it to be given consideration in a bigger society like the U.K.

primrose I’m so sorry that you have been called a rascist, a liar and that you talk rubbish.

eazybee

The cultural laws against women are becoming more rigorously enforced when immigrants join their larger communities, and has much to do with the control of men over women. Easily enforced in matters of dress at a young age, then including behaviour, social circles, employment and marriage. Living near the coast I see ethnic minority families on te beach, the men and boys in shorts and T shirts, the women in ankle length dresses and fitted coats, the girls in long sleeved dresses with below the knee skirts and thick black tights and wellingtons, plus headscarves. Some schoos have been forced to accede to single sex swimming lessons and PE lessons for primary age children, and demands for prayer time. It is the older brothers who control their sisters' behaviour. l

I think you are picking on "worst case" scenarios.

At the gym it's in a multi cultural area and the young women who swim wear an all in one outfit that closely resembles my grandchildren's "keep warm" swim outfits. The council swim pools have all women sessions which are quite popular with older women especially who feel self conscious.

It's all about how one views difference, either looking for what we have in common versus what is what drives us apart. I'm of the opinion that a better society emerges from finding what we have in common.

I used to live in Holland and the new housing projects were all mixed: home ownership; rented; social housing, detached; semis, flats; retirement blocks, all in the same area. My children played out in the street, all residential areas were restricted to 20 kph and they all mixed happily. The local schools catering for all, in the area. This is not a perfect answer but it does mean all the younger generation are integrated

Interesting that Simon Reeves can comment like this but those of us who have been saying the same things for years get called racists on here.

I have spoken on here about there being ghettos in this country where white people dare not go and been told I am talking rubbish.

I have also spoken about many Muslim women being treated as second class citizens and been accused of lying.

I have said that there should be more integration and that anybody who comes here must learn to speak English and not rely on their small children to translate.

I have spoken out many times about forced marriages, FGM and first cousin marriages.

I agree with the Danes.

I think in this country we also have a problem with "poor white" communities, where new people don't move in because "its a rough area", perhaps things changed for the area in the 70's / 80's & mass-unemployment has changed the culture.( We talk of the culture of GB, but it's changed massively since I was born, nothing to do with immigration)

I don't think our situation is the same as Scandinavia.We do have a lot of integrated communities, and ethnic minority families are much more common in rural and rural-suburban areas than they were even 10 years ago.

At first glance the forced dispersal of families in Denmark seems unjust. But I can appreciate that women's rights could be hard to promote in a concentrated immigrant community.Its an interesting post.

No of course not but think of the next generation!! That is what the Danish government is doing - thinking long term not short term.

It is to encourage integration by the children of the immigrants , and that is best achieved in the Danish governments opinion by ensuring that children of immigrants are immersed as far as possible into Danish culture.

Whitewavemark2

I do have a first hand example of what might be evidence of this working in practice.

A young professional woman has recently joined our family. Her family came here from a Middle East country. They are Christian, but hold very conservative cultural values, and this young woman was expected to adhere to their cultural norms for women in their family - remaining at home until marriage etc. This young woman who had been born in the U.K., and educated in a school, which is primarily of white children, absorbed these different values and when she reached 16 she simply rejected her parents values and left home. Sad.y they have not yet been reconciled. She is now in her 20s having put herself through university and now doing a higher degree and working in a career associated with her degree. She has entirely absorbed western values and culture as I assume the Danish government is hoping will happen there.

Unless I am missing something, that example is not at all what Denmark is going to try and do?
The girl was born in the Uk, grew up here, and already went to a "normal" school.

And with the best will in the world, that girl is now estranged from her family.

I must watch it, I do like Simon Reeves, particularly his take on different societies.

I think the Danish approach is practical, pragmatic and in some ways inevitable. They have of course got a smaller population and I wonder whether it is easier to implement such strategies from that point of view, our population is so much greater and by extension unwieldy, we are, certainly, in England at any rate, more of a cultural melting pot. I imagine unsurprisingly Denmark wishes to retain its identity, and depending on the ratio of immigrants to Danish nationals, possibly there would be a greater fear of Danish values being subsumed by ones that are alien and have no resonance to theirs. Their neighbour, Sweden is certainly an example of how badly immigration has turned urban areas into gangland ghettos. There needs to be some honesty around ghettoisation and gang culture along with how we can we have equal rights enshrined in our respective countries, when some citizens because they live a life of separateness, might as well be living in a state within a state. Denmark is possibly going down the route of tackling it head on, head on because they can see what many European countries are grappling with. Ideally it would be incumbent, but sometimes isn't, for incomers to at least respect and to immerse themselves in the ethos and laws of their host country, without entirely letting go of their own cultural identity, as long as those aren't at odds, some are. The best way of doing that is not to be in a ghetto, hard when people immigrate in enormous swathes adding to already established communities from the old country. Ideally they would marry out to someone from the country they have chosen to live in, that's how it was for the immigrant elements in my family. That was at a time when generally the ties were cut in an absolute way, from wherever incomers came from, communication would have been quite intermittent by letter. Religion and cultural practices often preclude that though. There isn't an easy answer. Denmark may be the one to watch in spearheading a way forward.

The cultural laws against women are becoming more rigorously enforced when immigrants join their larger communities, and has much to do with the control of men over women. Easily enforced in matters of dress at a young age, then including behaviour, social circles, employment and marriage. Living near the coast I see ethnic minority families on te beach, the men and boys in shorts and T shirts, the women in ankle length dresses and fitted coats, the girls in long sleeved dresses with below the knee skirts and thick black tights and wellingtons, plus headscarves. Some schoos have been forced to accede to single sex swimming lessons and PE lessons for primary age children, and demands for prayer time. It is the older brothers who control their sisters' behaviour. l

I watched it too; it's been a fascination series (and the only time we've ever been able to endure SR).

The example of an immigrant forced to move home , was extraordinary. He's a taxi driver, pointedly insisted on speaking fluent Danish; obviously to make a point how integrated he is in Danish society.. He has worked there for decades, raised 4 children to 4 highly skilled professsions benefitting the host country. IOW his family ARE
highly integrated into Danish culture and societal values .. so I'd like to have seen where they were made to move to, to become more---- what?
Or, were they picked for removal to a white area BECAUSE they are so integrated, educated, intelligent, economically successful ?

It sounds a terrible policy unless you'd seen the previous program about Sweden's appalling problems due to failed migrant integration (with Somali immigrant mother from Somalia, accusing her teen daughter's ungrateful generation, born in Sweden, of inflicting lawless gang violence on the host country.) Denmark is trying to do better.

Catch up on iplayer.

Finland and Sweden's fear of being Russia's next target (and civilian preparation for invasion) casts a whole different light on Starmer's UK defence message.

A young professional woman has recently joined our family. Her family came here from a Middle East country. They are Christian, but hold very conservative cultural values, and this young woman was expected to adhere to their cultural norms for women in their family - remaining at home until marriage etc

That's an interesting point that it is perhaps not religious but cultural values which are making it difficult for people, especially women to integrate.

We have friends and I had colleagues who are Hindu, Muslim and Christian (RC) from the Indian sub-continent and from Uganda (Asian) and they are all well-integrated and have been for years. They do retain some cultural values but not to the extent of isolating women from general society.